Digital Parish: Navigating the digital landscape with James Kang

Ryan Dunn [00:00:00]:

This is Pastoring in the Digital Parish, your resource and point of connection for building digital ministry strategy and bringing your congregation in to the digital age. Hi there. My name is Ryan Dunn. I'm the proctor for this podcast, which seeks to be the digital ministry class that you just didn't get in seminary. In this session, we're touching base once again with James King about how it started and how it's going in digital ministry. James emphasizes the importance of recognizing the demand for ministry work and the need to quickly generate resources. He suggests focusing on finding the perfect fit for your ministry rather than just striving for perfection while highlighting the sense of making the message applicable to people's everyday lives. What really spoke to me in the session was James' suggestion about shifting the focus from membership to actively creating and making. The concept of being 4 something rather than against is emphasized and James proposed reevaluating the mission and vision of the church to better meet the needs of the wider community. Yeah. We went that far. This session of pastoring in the digital parish is presented by safer sanctuaries, nurturing trust within faith communities. That's a new and comprehensive resource that continues the tradition of safe sanctuaries ministry by building on its trusted policies and procedures. So to learn more, go to safersanctuaries.org or call 1809720433. Hey. While I'm throwing out some info, here's some more on James Kang, our special guest for this section. James was formerly the director of communications and innovation of the California Pacific Conference of the United Methodist Church, and he as an alum of Clairemont School of Theology, James is something of a serial entrepreneur, having started pastoria in 2021 as a consultancy for digital ministry in the depths of the COVID 19 pandemic. Today, James works to generate products, services, and events that nurture the spirit of creators, entrepreneurs, changemakers, and innovators. in just about every industry, but mostly in ministry. So let's see how it started and how it's going with James Kang. Well, James, we last talked in June of

Ryan Dunn [00:02:32]:

2021.

Ryan Dunn [00:02:33]:

Pastoria is still going. What's changed with pastoria since then.

James Kang [00:02:38]:

Yes. Thanks so much, Ryan. You know, first of all, before I answer that question, what I wanna say is thanks so much for making space for myself and also for the spirit. And I really think that this podcast is like a bright spot in the denomination in the life of our church, and I know that in future, we'll be looking back at this podcast as as such, and I really appreciate what you're doing. Pastoria, thanks for the question. I'm really interested in what has happened myself, but I would say that today, how I describe pastoria is that it is spiritual self expression in design, entrepreneurship, innovation, travel and also, of course, faith. And to kind of just give a summary on that, I started past story with the idea that it would kinda be a consultancy for ministries that want to be digital, go digital, let's say. And over time, what I have found is that the world has changed or keeps changing, and it keeps changing very quickly some years quicker than others. And therefore, past story must also change And I think that instead of, let's say, a time for consulting, it was my own decision. Kind of discernment is also conclusion that maybe it's also more so before consulting a time for showing showing examples of what I mean and of what I want. And so, from a from a consultancy model, it's turned into more of an incubator model where it generates ministry. And it's kind kind of trying to generate ministries in different modalities, let's say, for example, So for the modality of design, entrepreneurship, innovation, travel, and, of course, faith, what I'm trying to say is that If we were to interpret it a certain way, these modalities are languages. They are spiritual languages that I believe And in each through each of these languages and each of these industries, so to speak, you can see it as a ministry, your life as a ministry in these things as well as yourself as a minister. So that's kind of where things are with pastoria right now. Okay. Talk to me about the travel stuff a little bit. Like, are you designing trips? Is that what's going on? Yes. So, I mean, I I think that the thing about myself is that I'll take an industry and it'll take me some time to kind of pinpoint where I want to start things. But I can talk a little bit about where how I got to this place. What I realized about travel was this during the kind of the most darkest times of the pandemic. What I found myself doing was I found myself doing kind of the same things every day. And what that was for me was for some reason I would travel, quote, quote, to the same coffee shop every day, to the same drink every day, and then drive around thinking some of the similar thoughts that I've had on my mind every day. And what I realized was that without my self doing it explicitly and holding up a bread and cup and saying this is the what of Christ. This is the ritualization of a part of my life. Wow. And I I I compare that to this short distance from where I live to this coffee shop. What I realized was that What people used to call or what we call pilgrimages is pretty much a a travel And the only difference is the amount of time that it took to close the distance. For example, before they had cars, it would take a long time to get somewhere where today because we have cars, it would only take a short amount of time. And in some sense, if we didn't have a car, Those of us who go to a church building every Sunday, if we didn't use a car, it would be almost a pilgrimage every Sunday. And what I'm trying to say is that the act the act that we call travel that an industry has been built upon, I believe, it can actually be a ministry onto itself. In fact, the the things that we do For example, coming to some kind of conclusion about ourselves during a trip or coming to some kind of realization. coming back home with some kind of commitment or some ideas as to how things are gonna change about ourselves in the world. And so on and so forth. these things -- Well, that happens all the time. Right? Every time I take a trip, I come back with some sense of renewed purpose. It'll work. There we go. So in what way can we see that as a ministry? And I think that coming alongside that and designing Not necessarily the trip, but the voice that goes with you on that trip is the what I am developing through past story. And we and and the and the brand name for that is called SolTel. SolTel. But we can learn more about that at pastoria.co. So yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:07:52]:

Cool. Well, I wanna talk to you about some of the creative ways that you've been seeing ministry take shape and through both pastoria, but also outside of it. I know that some of the folks that you've worked with in pastoria have become deep friends of this podcast, and we follow their ministries as well. It's cool how that comes full circle like that. But I wanna focus in on something that that you've worked on on your own. You just released an AI version of John Wesley, which is a lot of fun to play with. When I first started playing with it, I didn't realize it it was you. You had just kinda advertised it. I was like, oh, this is awesome. And then they're like, yeah. James James made that. So what was the inspiration for creating an AI, John Wesley Johnny Wesley?

James Kang [00:08:40]:

Definitely. Definitely. And I I think that, you know, inspiration is this thing that happens consciously and nonconsciously. But if I were to kinda talk about it in concrete terms. I think that there are three things that are coming together that are somewhat in the back of my mind. Number 1, I think we can only expect generative AI to become easier to use and also more domain specific It's gonna become more specific in certain kind of industries or certain kind of use cases or kind of occasions, so on and so forth. So That's number 1. Number 2, I think that generative AI very much is and will continue to facilitate education. And I think that's because it's so good. It's just so easy to use. This chat based interface is what we often do with our teachers. let's say we talk. And, also, it's really good at ingesting kind of what I would call, quote unquote raw information or raw data. into a very, very easily learnable or consumable form. It's good at doing that. And thirdly, kind of on the other side of things, our demand for formal theological edge education is going down. It's tough to see it going any other way, honestly, although who knows? But with these three things coming together, I thought to myself that why not put something like together and instead of kind of a middle person of a of the church, you can connect with quote unquote John Wesley directly and see what happens. And to address your question a little bit more specifically, was an experiment on my part one of pastoria's projects is called regular or regular church, and it started off as a project for ministry in the metaverse. and then AI came out at least publicly, and then it became ministry in the metaverse plus AI. And the thesis to test was can AI, generative AI, chat based AI as we have it, process, think, and communicate with us Theologically. Theologically. And the answer is yes. And so with that kind of been addressed, it's time to kind of think about what the implications are. That's what that was all about.

Ryan Dunn [00:11:08]:

Okay. What was the process for creating something like that? Do you have a deep background in Like, AI creation

James Kang [00:11:15]:

programming. Okay. So here's what I do. I trust that The AI side is going to understand what I'm talking about, and I just kinda follow their guidelines. So it was based off of poe.com, which is kind of a platform that the company Quora, quora, makes available for people. And I just followed their guidelines. So number 1, I said pretend that something like I said, pretend that you are John Wesley, the Anglican priest of I don't know, like, the whatever year it was. And I also though put an only talk with me in the language of Victorian English or whatever it was that he spoke, you know, and and and pretend you know, to communicate in this way so we have this kind of taste of what it might be like to communicate with John Wesley. And so it took a few tries, but ultimately it did that I think that, you know, what I would add is that I could take that kinda same prompt and do it directly into, like, chat, GPT, and it will do it better. And so But in any case, there's some more testing to do. It was very, very simple process.

Ryan Dunn [00:12:30]:

Okay. You know? And it's a lot of fun to play with. We've been having some conversations around the AI Jesus persona. There's a popular one on Twitch right now. And as we put this stuff out onto social media, there are, of course, responses that are like, this is this is the devil. You can't You can't trust this, but you just lift it up that we can use AI for theological formation. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Like, how has AI been useful, or could something like John Wesley, Johnny Wessie be useful for theological formation?

James Kang [00:13:08]:

Yeah. Definitely. I think that it's important to note that There are going to be many different kind of personas of, let's just say, for for sake of our discussion, John Wesley, as many as people make them. And the and for that matter, what we have to do always when we do new things is to look back and see if we have already been doing that. And I believe that we already come up with different personas or versions of John Wesley at every church, every bible study, every membership class, every sermon when we quote him and teach about him in a certain way. And for that matter, Did John Wesley think of things as a quadrilateral? No. He never even used that term. That was an interpretation that came after and so on and so forth. What am I trying to say that's wrong? No. All I'm trying to say is, we have to be honest with the fact that every time we talk and teach about him, it's a version. It's a version. and that's what AI will also do. I think what is great about AI and and and Seth Godin talked about this and many other people just it's just very It's just very obvious whether it comes to theological educational formation or anything else for that matter. What is great about AI is that it is available all the time, and it is almost it is available almost inaccessible in a very, very easily communicable form. Meaning that you do not have to wait for bible study You do not have to wait for Sunday. You do not have to open up a book. Very directly, you can go with your questions. to to some kind of generative AI based agent and have that question be answered directly. And I think that, you know, when we had kind of this age of Google or this age of search or keyword based search, there there was a book out there. I think it was by Scott Galloway that said that Google is God in the sense that it has organized all of the knowledge and made all of the knowledge accessible, making omnipotent kind of paralleling No. I'm gonna say omniscience. Parallelling omniscience. In that sense, I think AI will help do that, but we have to remember I'll end with this. It's not perfect and nothing ever has been. And we have to be aware of the fact that all of this is an interpretation in an instance and we have work to do. Thankfully, we are of a of a of a theological perspective where we are moving on to perfection. same thing of with this kind of thing.

Ryan Dunn [00:15:48]:

Yeah. Income. Yeah. And that's an important note that it's not like we're putting our our our faith fully stocked into the AI personality. But it is it is fascinating, and and it's a means of information. Right? That's right. I've been incredibly inspired by by both Johnny Wesley and the the Twitch Jesus. Mhmm. Well, in particular, the Twitch Jesus in just the patience it displays for dealing with, you know, off the wall nonsensical questions and yet somehow still wrap back to a message that I'm like, that's that's pretty creative. I see what you did there, Jesus. That's good. Right. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Which helps us then imagine our lived out responses to some of the questions that people are posing in society. So -- That's right. -- it's valuable in that way.

James Kang [00:16:39]:

Absolutely.

Ryan Dunn [00:16:41]:

Well, on the topic of creativity, what are just some of the other ways that you've seen ministry lived out in digital space?

James Kang [00:16:50]:

Yeah. You know, you know, since the last time we talked, a lot has A lot has happened, and I think a lot more will happen. I mean, who knew that some and at some time after the advent of the pandemic would be something like AI and things like well, I guess the people who are making it new. But in any case, you know, one of the things that I would point out that has been pointed out to me before. And I think originally, it was by our friend Abigail from everyday sanctuary. Thanks so much for bringing this up is something that is now real and live called Peoplehood. And, I'm gonna do my best to describe Peoplehood like this. Peoplehood is a quote unquote community where at a certain time, a group of people, if you get accepted into it, kind of you get to come together and you do some breathing exercises, and then you kind of split up into groups or pairs and then you kind of share with each other how you are doing. and you're supposed to listen to each other. And and then maybe after that, come back as a group and then go, and peoplehood. I don't know if it can be called the business or service or what, but it is this thing that the founders of Soul Cycle made They call their flagship building in New York City a sanctuary. They call it their sanctuary. And they have these groups in person. They also have it virtually for a certain the membership fee or subscription fee or something like that. And I think what what is really interesting about it is that parallels, not only their language, but the practices with what we do and what you might call institutional religion or or something like organized religion, formal religion. And how people are responding to it? There has been kind of this on the one side. This does not really seem real. This seems like a knock off of what we traditionally do. And then there's another, I think, group of people who really are open to this kind of thing and find it to be helpful without kind of the baggage that comes with organized religion. And and so I'm really interested in in what's gonna come about from it. Peoplehood I also think it's really interesting what's happening in the transportation space or the car space. Sony has a car concept that I think that they are pursuing, but -- Okay. -- so does BMW. And BMW's kind of neck gen car concept is supposed to be a car with a digital soul, quote unquote. That's their terms. And what they're trying to say is that kind of the car of the future will be this thing that helps you live. These these are my words. I mean, maybe one day they'll hire me. But It helps you live and it is itself almost living. It'll talk to you. It'll make media available to you while you are moving. and it'll just kinda help you live actively proactively help you live. And so The the very fact that they are calling in a a car with a quote unquote digital soul, the fact that they had to use those terms is very interesting to me. And all these things, there's more but all these things are examples of how I believe we can very much identify religion or spirituality outside of the Four walls of the church literally outside. And coming into the Four doors of our cars, and and and kind of the, you know, the the the screens of our phones and so on and so forth. So these are these are the things specifically that really have interested me in the recent past.

Ryan Dunn [00:20:55]:

I've been talking with Charles Vogel a lot recently, and his big thing is that we are in a loneliness app epidemic. And what you've just highlighted, it speaks into that quite a bit because it just sounds like these are groups and even products for people who are just longing for for some kind of connection. You brought up previously another ministry group or something, an organization that that touches on that a little bit. It's AI based relationship coaching. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

James Kang [00:21:34]:

Okay. So so like I can't do the best of my ability because I'm not making it. But -- Yeah. -- so kind of You know, we're still in it, but in kind of even earlier stages of Right when AI came out, there started to be this big grab of investments in AI based things. And there's a I wish I'm gonna, you know, I wish that I had her name right off the top of my head, but there's a There's a person who is founding a company called Amorai. So a like Amora, a m o r a, but then with an eye at the end. So a more eye. AI am I. It's it's going to be kind of an AI based relationship coach. Let me just before peep I hear people's eyes rolling, and I hear kind of, you know, people getting their cabbages tomatoes ready to to throw at me. But what I want to say is that I understand that we in the church traditionally see community and define community a certain way. I think that what the evidence or kind of the condition not only of people, but kind of the preferences of people are is as important as what we believe is the right way to have community. And this person who is founding this company, one of the things that she pointed out was that in surveys with certain male people. There was a preference to interact about very, very personal things with an AI based agent over and above other people. Over and above and other people. And I think that if there is at least a certain kind of preference like that out there, it could even be a good starting place. But my guess about what this is gonna happen. That MRI is gonna happen is that. Kind of what we might have tradition seeing as kind of what you are supposed to pick up on the school playground as how to make friends and and what you're supposed to pick up from these movies and these books about how to become I come into romantic relationships. And what we are just kinda have to pick up from the side about how to make friends and be in in in some kind of commonality with other people. this AI based agent is gonna actually formally and explicitly help you do that. And so that's what I project as as being how it's gonna do. And and for my you know, it my not that it is worth anything, But if I were to make some kind of prediction, I think that it is a great thing to start off with, and I think that there's a lot of room for it. So yeah. Mhmm.

Ryan Dunn [00:24:39]:

Yeah. The value with this kind of stuff, like, I I imagine with the Amore AI, you you begin with treating it almost like you would Google and asking a a specific question. I think the value with the AI stuff is that then you can easily have a pseudo conversation in a way -- Right. -- you can ask follow-up questions and it understands what you're building upon, whereas you're not starting afresh on a on a new search. Right. And that's useful in so many realms. Like, in the relationship building for sure, but even, you know, in terms of unpacking what John Wesley might think about, ministry in the digital space, which which, by the way, John Wesley did not care too much about it. He didn't wanna speak about about sermonizing online. He just said, hey, as long as it's it's drawing people towards holiness, then it's it's in.

James Kang [00:25:32]:

Right. Absolutely.

Ryan Dunn [00:25:35]:

Hey. I'm gonna interrupt our conversation with James Kang with an important message about safety in ministry. And a reminder that this season of pastoring in the digital Parish is sponsored, by a group that takes community building seriously, safer sanctuaries. The safer sanctuaries nurturing trust within faith communities is a new and comprehensive resource that continues the tradition of safe sanctuary's ministry by building on the trusted policies and procedures that have guide churches over the past 25 years. Really more than that. This resource contains theological grounding for the work of abuse prevention psychological insights about abuse and abuse prevention, basic guidelines for risk reduction for your organization, age level specific guidance, and step by step instructions on how to develop, revise, update, and implement an abuse prevention plan in your church or organization. For Christians, we know resisting evil and doing justice are ways that we live and serve Jesus. Safer sanctuaries provides help to do just that by framing this work as life giving, community enhancing, and proactive in its endeavors. It enables communities to be empowered and to flourish as they develop and implement policies and procedures that make everyone safe. To learn more, Go to saversanctuaries.org or call them at 1-800-972-0433. Check them out and build a little more care and safety into your community. You've worked with some ministers of startup ministries, Abigail, Brokei, you brought up. What shifts in mindset are you recommending? As some of these Ministries or ministers come to you with their their far out ideas like part of our herd is overcoming some of the ingrained or cultured ways that we've been trained to think about ministry. So what kind of mind shifts need to happen for the minister of the future?

James Kang [00:27:43]:

Absolutely. I wanna say definitely Abigail Broker is a friend of past story, not necessarily a client. I just wanna make that clear. Also, a friend definitely so is Nathan Webb of Check Point Church, and I think great things are happening there. Pastoria has also really, really great supporters whose names. I don't know that I can name them all here, but thank you for listening. What I wanna say is that, yes, There are some people that I have worked with, and there's some things that I've observed. I think if I could, I would like to articulate kind of 2 main things that I think might be important for those who are in ministry in general and perhaps specifically those who are kinda trying to start new things. If I were to put it the first one into a phrase, I would say, you know, hurry up and get to your first dollar. Hurry up and get to your first dollar. we in ministry, I can already hear just kind of the knives coming out. Or and not the knives. You know, the the edges. They're growing for the money. Yep. Yeah. The the edge of the hymnals, you know, I could already but listen. Too often, I think, that we theological people get too ideological and we insist on something being this way and only this way. And there's nothing wrong with that per se because we all have our theological for convictions, and that is not anything we should be bereft of at all. Let's hold on to it. The only thing is that our theologies are not what needs to be proven here. There's no question. We none none of us are gonna have any question marks about what we believe a ministry should be like or how to help other people or something like that. What does still need to be proven though? is how to kind of deliver that or bring that to life in a sustainable way. And to do that, money does matter. but also it's indicative of the interest slash need slash demand that is out there. So That is why it's a test. It's a test if you of your thesis, your theory. If I put it out like this, they will receive it and they will want more. If you can pass that test, you should keep doing that. But if you can't pass that test, then you know that you have to bring it to life in a different way. You can keep the convictions that you have. But hurry up and get to your first dollar. It will help save you a lot of time. And I think that the along with that, I think, is what will help us is this phrase. I think go for perfect fit, not necessarily the perfect ministry. You know, what I've seen a lot is particularly with church plants and those of us who do it in the United Methodist way will get a certain amount of people. We will want their participation, so we'll say, oh, yeah. Come in. We need to hear your voice. What happens when we do that is We have these committee meetings where we start to hear a lot of this. Well, we're doing it this way, but how come we're not doing this? And how come we're not doing that? And over time, what happens is that this one thing that we started with starts to become too many things about how to make this ministry right really, in my mind, the starting point or maybe even the kind of condition for whether or not we are having the right discussion is does this fit in the life, the everyday life of the people that we are trying to be in connection with or not? Where our ministry is never gonna be perfect. Like I said, again, we are United Methodist. We are of the Westage. We are moving on to perfection. Let's keep that in mind. That'll help us keep going for the long term. What we need to understand is that in a week's time or a month's time or in 6 months time, Do we have something that fits right in that amount of time? Can we do it for the people that we want to be in connection with? And so if we if anyone were to ask me, not that many people do, but if anyone were to ask me, you know, what are two things that come to mind that I would put it into these 2 phrases. Right? Okay. And on that second one there, would you say that's really a focus on people over program? I think so. I think the I I think I think that it's not that the having a program per se is not Right? Or we shouldn't do that. Again, I don't want to get ideological about that. But I think the question to ask is, are they asking for a program? if they are, what is it? Or what are they saying that they need? It's always, you know, what I would kinda cap cap that with is this it's there's always attention, t e n s i o n. Attention between what people ask for and what people didn't know that they would want if it actually existed. There's the quote out there from Henry Ford or it's attributed to Henry Ford. You know, if I were to have asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse. instead of the card that -- Yeah. -- built. And so there's always attention there, but we do have to listen to what people are saying and see if it fits into their everyday life.

Ryan Dunn [00:33:26]:

Alright. So mindsets for the future. James says show me the money. Go for the dollar. Just kidding. Okay. Go go for the productive signs and -- That's right. And then go for the perfect fit, not necessarily for the perfect ministry. That's the productive kind of stuff. Let let's get a little reductive. Sure. What are some of the traditional mindsets about ministry that we need to start rethinking or maybe even leaving behind?

James Kang [00:33:54]:

Yeah. So you know what? This is a tough one and I have learned over time that You can only be against something for so long until the question of what are you 4 comes up and It's been my own practice of discipleship to keep myself from going in that direction for too long and to ask myself what I am for. And in and in questioning myself in doing that, the phrase that I have come up with is that perhaps the The church of the future and ministry of the future is less member centric and more maker centric. And here's what I mean by that. You know, the church of today is oftentimes ultimately a 501c3 in an American sense. I don't know if we can find 501c3 in the bible. I don't know if Jesus said everyone. Let's go incorporate a 501c3. I'm not saying that it's wrong. What I'm saying is that if we are honest with ourselves and with each other in community, we will admit that this is a modern interpretation, and it's what I call a modality or a language of spirituality. 51c3ishness with the membership requirements as well as responsibilities. So for example, membership classes and also being a part of committees and and making decisions through committee meetings and so on and so forth. Voting all the parliamentary process that comes with it. You know what we love. This is a certain set of things that we do for what I call spiritual self expression. But, you know, in this digital age, I I think I've talked about this before. The expectation for us, it's not necessarily just to be members per se, but to be makers. What are you gonna post? What picture are you gonna grab? What video are you going to shoot? What graphic are you gonna design? What newsletter are you gonna write All of these things are expectations that we have something to make. And for that matter, what community are we going to build? and to design around that, not necessarily to design around membership. Let me just kind of cap that with What I think is a common common activity, a leadership activity for the 501c3 which is to come up with a mission and vision statement by doing this. Everyone we're gonna have a retreat And at that retreat, we're gonna ask each other who are already members who are we? Who are we? Oftentimes we do this without asking now, who are they? Who are they outside of our membership? Who are they? And if we were to design faith around them, What would that look like? And what's the distance in the in the difference between what we would make for ourselves and what we would make for how do we close that gap and so on and so forth? This kind of maker centric and maker centricity is what I hope can can be a larger share of the types of ministries that we have.

Ryan Dunn [00:37:26]:

Yeah. And that really speaks into the the different or the shift in the way that individuals -- Yes. -- engage in their own process of meaning making -- That's right. -- where, you know, once upon a time, our our meanings and our our identities as a part of that were kind of handed to us in a sense. Like, you know, we've always had a certain sense of agency, but but now it's very much individualized. Right? Like, we do not receive our identity as being a a a United Methodist per se. But -- Right. -- you know, we might say like, well, I choose to worship United Methodist. I also you know, Wednesday night, I'm gonna go do my my Buddhist meditation practice, and -- That's right. And then it's yoga on Saturday mornings and yeah. Mhmm.

James Kang [00:38:20]:

Mhmm.

Ryan Dunn [00:38:21]:

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it's it's in a sense letting go of the idea that people are going to ascribe to the the set way of being within a predefined culture of of, well, something like a church, for example. Right. Right. They may they may take value out of it, but

James Kang [00:38:40]:

Right. There's a caveat on that. Absolutely. And, I mean, just to put it in another faith phrase, I think, you know, the role that this thing called the church will play in the natural and and as you've pointed out, just kind of meaning making of spiritual self expression. What is the role that the church is gonna play? And I think that in in a large sense, it will play different roles for different people. And really, kind of the responsibility. And I think it's very wesleyan. One of the biggest theological questions that I had was, hey, how come we don't believe that God predest and as well because there's a you know, we it is up to us a lot of things, and we are still responsible for our choices. I think the same with the way that we will build our sense of faith and and that our and our denomination and our local church membership per se will be a part of that. It may not be the totality of that. Yeah. So much anymore. Mhmm.

Ryan Dunn [00:39:41]:

Well, in in relation to that, I think the role of pastor is changing quite a bit. And and maybe, like, Contrary to what we have commonly practiced in in the United Methodist denomination where, you know, the role of pastor is supposed to be somewhat invisible. in terms of what it means to the the congregation or or church community. It's all about that. And yet, I think that there's gonna be a little bit shift onto the role of pastor as that spiritual guide, a human being who is a spiritual guide, and a bit of a coach. And you have begun development on on a program that I think In a good way, lays into that kind of identity building and just making people easy to know, which is an avenue for relation ship. So can you tell us a little bit about the North X app? What inspired it for you? And And why it might be necessary to have something like that or useful to have something like that in the digital age? Yes. I really appreciate this question, Ryan, and thanks so much for that.

James Kang [00:40:49]:

I think it's like this. You know, we There are people like me. I'm not gonna say you and me. I'm not gonna speak for you. You could say it if it's you or not. But, We people like me sometimes might meet people, but we don't necessarily at that very moment have a really great elevator speech, and they understand exactly what we are doing. because sometimes what we stand for or what we want seems fairly far off. And there's this then in that kind of question mark cloud, is this gap between kind of a typical website that is very, very large and that is very, very formal and social media accounts, social media accounts that are usually kind of feed centric and have a life of their own as well as a timeline of their own. And I think if I were to make this more concrete for a newly appointed clergy person, People who kind of become your Facebook friend or whatever follower could be kind of blind sided by Oh my gosh. What are all these posts that my pastor is posting? Coming into a kind of cold -- Yeah. -- is kinda jumping into an ice bath. And then at the same time, if you have a clergy person that's meeting someone in the community, if you refer them to your church website, There might be too big of a distance there. And so, what can be in between kind of a formal church website and our social media accounts is this, you know, what we've been used to in kind of the Instagram world and others of this link in bio or Link Tree. And these are kind of link link link link link, but Narthex has a section for FAQs kinda just three where it the format and the space forces you as the clergy person or whomever To answer 3 very direct questions, like, what are you going for here? What are you about? And, you know, what do you believe or something like that, but in very concrete terms and the answer should be very simple. And then you have links to your church or wherever you wanna let people know to go, lead people to go. But, you know, as the name goes, Narthex, I think that it can be for people like myself whenever you meet other people. It can be the place where you refer back to like narthex.co/youwhatever username you want. and it can also be a way for people to before they enter your church. Kinda get to know you before they go directly into church. And I think personally, a lot of times people will enter a church at the invitation of a person or at least a person is guiding them. Yeah. And and therefore, it could be a good way for clergy persons to be able to do that through north Narcx. This what I call the Digital Nortics. So yeah. Thank you. That's the idea.

Ryan Dunn [00:44:01]:

Yeah. Income. Yeah. Well and it just plays on one of the ideas that we keep bringing up in this podcast is that you know, the the benefit of the digital realm is that it allows us to be accessible and that allows us to be easily knowable. Right. And that's how we build trust in relationship. And so this is just a a means for being open and knowable therefore, we're open to trust in relationship, which is super helpful to them. Appreciate it. Something that the church needs And I James, I just imagine you as being this person who has, like, list and lists of ideas of things that you're gonna work on in the future. So what's what's an upcoming project that you're a little excited about?

James Kang [00:44:46]:

Yeah. I mean, like, oh my gosh. So, you know, what I would say is that I want to keep on building Narthex I don't wanna reveal too much but I want to say that at a certain point when we have enough people, I'd like the kind of front page of Narthex to be the answers to the very same questions that we ask all these users kind of side by side. And let's see what all these answers are. But, you know, the big thing for the church that I'm coming up with for the fall is we have ultimately we are going to have these churches that are gonna be at the edge of closing. Gonna be at the edge of closing. And this process is never smooth. It's never smooth. And all so, I think the process is ultimately, I think in the intent is to be redemptive. I don't know that it can have or it has had kind of the imaginative power that it could have. And so, what I'm coming up with is a program about a year or 2 out from projected closing for these kinds of churches to go through a certain kind of process. I call it the Patmos program. Kinda, like, not to be too Escada. Oh, jigosh. But but but you know where Apparently, the person named John went to in order to have the dreams that are written down now that we have in the book of Revelation, Patmos Island. But it's kinda trying to say, look, this is not the start of the end. This is the end of the beginning. and we can start with our dreams. You can be a part of it or you don't have to be a part of it. But, you know and I know that this thing that we've had up until now is closing. So what can we do instead and to make it a much more, I think simple but as well as an imaginative process. Nothing mind blowing, but patmos, the patmos will be coming up in the fall. and there's some other things in the pipeline. But yeah. This one of my problems that I see and feel something that should be done and then I do it. but I hope that it can reach people such as yourself and get the word out, and we can work together on things.

Ryan Dunn [00:47:13]:

Mhmm. Appreciate it. Cool. James, thanks so much for speaking with us and for letting us take a look inside your brain. It's inspiring and entertaining.

James Kang [00:47:23]:

Thank you. Anytime, Ryan. And also likewise for the work that you're doing at u m com. Thanks so much. Alright. Note to self invite James Back again.

Ryan Dunn [00:47:34]:

Thank you, Eddie. So -- It's gonna put a wrap on this session of pastoring in the digital parish. Some good follow-up epic seats include our first conversation with James way back in season 1. That session is titled, What Is Digital First Ministry? And James mentioned our mutual friend Abigail Broker a couple times in our conversation. So if you'd like to learn about her interesting ministry, then check out season fours, building an app based ministry, an online contemplative community. Again, my name is Ryan Dunn. I'd like to thank resourceunc.org, the online destination for leaders throughout the United Methodist Church. You make this podcast possible and They host our website, pastoring in the digitalperish.com, where you can find more online resources for ministry. I also wanna thank safer sanctuaries for their support. Safer Sanctuary's nurturing trust within faith communities is a new and comprehensive resource that continues the tradition of Safe San to his ministry by building on his trusted policies and procedures. The resource contains theological grounding for the work of abuse prevention. basic guidelines for risk reduction, age level specific guidance and step by step instructions on how to develop, revise, update, and implement an abuse prevention plan. Yeah. If you wanna connect with the pastoring in the digital parish community, well, then check out our past in the digital parish group on Facebook, and you can also touch base on email. Send me some questions or ideas for future sessions at digital parish atumcom.org. Another session comes next week. So I will talk to you then. And in the meantime, peace.