Digital Parish: Digital community building through play and gaming

Ryan Dunn [00:00:00]:

This is Pastoring in the Digital Parish, your resource and point of connection for building digital ministry strategy and bringing your congregation into the digital age. Hi there, my name is Ryan Dunn. I'm the proctor for this podcast, which seeks to be the digital ministry class that you just didn't get in seminary. This episode is focused on fun in ministry. Do you remember that being a thing? Of course you do. And on this episode of Pastoring in the Digital Parish, we explore the intersection of gaming in ministry. Our guests shared insights on how playing games can build genuine community, especially in a digital-first culture. So we heard from Joy van Staldinen and Laura Whitman about their experiences using games to engage young people and bridging the gap between in-person and online engagement, respectively. We also talked about playing tabletop games like Dungeons and Dragons with other clergy members, and we shared how gaming can be a therapeutic tool and promote inclusion in church communities. So tune in to hear more about how gaming can be a tool for digital ministry and community building. And this fun focused episode of Pastoring in the Digital Parish is presented by safer sanctuaries. Safety is a necessary platform for fun and growth. In Safer Sanctuaries, nurturing trust within faith communities is a new and comprehensive resource that continues the tradition of Safe Sanctuaries ministry by building on its trusted policies and procedures. To learn more, you can go to safersanctuaries.org or you can call 1-800-972-0433. You know what else is fun? Ratings and reviews. At least they're fun for me that is. I think that they're fun for the reviewers too, so I invite you to have some fun by leaving a really, really nice rating and review on your podcast listening platform. Then I'll have fun reading your review and then prospective guests and listeners will see something that they want to join in on as well. And just for fun, include the word fun in your review. Why not? All right, let's meet our adjunct professors for this session of pastoring in the digital parish. Laura Whitman is an ordained elder currently planting the Mills Church in Rocky Mount, North Carolina. Laura has been serving in pastoral ministry for 16 years and her passions include collaborative ministry, Wesleyan history, and of course, Star Wars. And Joy Van Staldinen is a deacon who provides pastoral care and education to individuals and faith communities through online coaching and the Love and Loss podcast. And She does this internationally as she is based in the Netherlands. So it was fun to learn all about that aspect of digital ministry and community building across international lines. They both shared quite a bit about using games and fun for building digital ministry. Let's hear it on pastoring in the digital parish.

Ryan Dunn [00:03:07]:

All right. We are joined by reverends, Laura Whitman and Joy van Staldyne. And thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us from parts across the world on pastoring in the digital parish. Joy, since you've traveled, proverbially traveled the farthest to be with us today, let's start with you. What does your ministry context look like right now?

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:03:28]:

Yeah, so my ministry, we kind of have to back up to pandemic times. And, um, I was taking a leave of absence from ministry and ready to jump back in in the middle of a global pandemic. So I read about a church who was looking for an online only youth minister, because that's what we were doing then, right? They had a minister step away and quit and they said, well, we don't know what's next. Like we don't know what we're going to need when we come out of this. Can someone get us through? And I was like, I would love to get you through. Um, and as you know, uh, we've opened back up, Everything's open. We eat in restaurants, we go to the movies, and yet I'm still doing online youth ministry. Something amazing has happened to where it's spread. And I work with a few other churches now doing this that started during the pandemic and then kind of kept going. These churches are actually in France and I live in the Netherlands. So It's about a 6 hour drive to get to where these churches are. And I've been there plenty of times, but majority of my ministry is over Zoom. We've tried to hold in-person events and undoubtedly we have a much higher participation digitally.

Ryan Dunn [00:04:49]:

Within a context like that, how do you go about reaching students? I mean, the question across church world oftentimes is how do we reach the young people, right? So how are you finding that happening in the digital space?

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:05:01]:

Well, I had to get some trust with my adult leaders and volunteers first, because I'm really big on games. And I think it's easier to see the merit in that when you're like sitting in a circle and playing musical chairs, right? But I had to say like, I'm going to go on Jackbox TV. If you haven't heard of that, you need to check it out. So much fun. So we play these games digitally where everyone has their phone and they log in. You're basically, your phone is like a remote control for these games. And I had to, I had to get some trust where are we just playing a game? Is this just game night or are we going to get into something important? And what started to happen is the kids started to trust each other. So we were forming this holy community before we dove in to just talking directly about scripture.

Ryan Dunn [00:05:51]:

Okay. All right. And the youth ministry thing is not the only thing that you have going on, Reverend Joy. Can you tell us about a couple of the other pots that you have your hands in?

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:06:01]:

Yeah. The Lord has allowed me to kind of spread myself thin and always be excited about something else. And I, I do host a podcast, I'm talking about the stories of pregnancy and infant loss. It's not a happy podcast. It is a necessary podcast. And so we talk about spiritual implications and ways that we honor our kids after they've gone on to be with Jesus. Another thing I do is I teach some trainings to clergy about including people with autism and special needs in our local congregations. And I do all of that via Zoom. So this is the craziest thing. I live in the Netherlands and most of my work is in France in the United States. It is crazy. Just kind of a, I don't know, an indicator of the times in which we live in. I should say though, the podcast, the Love and Loss podcast, if you want to check it out, I have recorded with people in Australia, the UK, the United States, Germany, Austria, the Netherlands. I think that's it. It's wild. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:07:13]:

It is. Yeah. Okay. So we're not putting you out too much by asking you to kind of dial back 8 hours or whatever it is to talk. No, this is my bread and butter. I love it. Cool.

Laura Wittman [00:07:23]:

All right, well, Reverend Laura Whitman, what does your ministry context look like right now? Well, I too am very well traveled and I work a lot with people in the Rocky Mount, North Carolina area. You may have heard of it. It's very famous.

Ryan Dunn [00:07:37]:

I have.

Laura Wittman [00:07:40]:

Very exciting place. Many people travel up 95 and down 95 and they find us by accident. Um, so I, But I love where I am. I love hearing what Joy is doing, by the way, as a mom of an autistic kid, and my husband is autistic. He would be totally cool with me telling you all that because he's like, It's become a really important ministry point also. So hearing that intentional work being done with churches is really cool. So now back to Rocky Mount. I am planting the Mills Church, which is a reconciling United Methodist New Faith community. We are actually entering our fourth year and I don't know how that's even possible, but that's crazy. So we started, I got appointed to planting this church in 2020 in the middle of a pandemic and I remember at the time Greg Moore was over New Faith Communities when I started and I said to Greg this is either gonna be the best time to plant a church or the worst time to plant a church. Nowhere in the middle. It's got to be 1 of those 2 things. So I started planting the Mills Church right in the middle of a pandemic, started planting in a digital world, which was crazy. Now, you know, most of what we do looks pretty traditional, like we're back in person and doing a lot of things together in person, but there's still definitely some digital aspects of our ministry that we're trying to increase and work on. But it's been really exciting and really crazy all at the same time. I am also working with the conference on, in the midst of disaffiliation, I'm helping coordinate the United Methodist Collective and also Lighthouse Congregations for the North Carolina Conference, which has been really, really cool because that work has not just been within the conference, but all over the place. So I do, I joke, I do travel some and I'm going to Pennsylvania in June. So, you know, it's really exciting. Yeah, I'm sure I can give you more as to what we're doing, But yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:09:47]:

Well, I live in Tennessee, Laura. And when I travel, I travel to North Carolina. So it's very exciting. It is. Yeah. And I will, I will, without a doubt, be passing through Rocky Mount on my way to scenic Greenville, North Carolina. So, Wow. You know, that's a lot of adventure all at once. Wait, Joy, you had mentioned some of the games that you enjoy, well, at least that you enjoy. Is it Jackbox TV? It is. Cool. All right. And Laura, you have done quite a bit of work kind of developing ministry within the gaming community. And so I wanted to talk to you both about gaming in general and how we use games to really build upon community and reaching out in relationship with 1 another. So Joy, are games like a part of your personal life? Are you out playing a lot?

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:10:47]:

I'm more into cross-stitching, if I'm honest. But other than annoying cell phone games, I don't really play a lot of these really cool, interactive Xbox, like that's never been me. I think when I was first introduced to like digital games for community building was when I was actually in person as a youth director at a very large United Methodist Church in Raleigh. And we used to have senior high Bible study that nobody came to. 1 time we doubled our numbers and got to 2 people at a massive church. So we said, you know what, this isn't working. Let's just get together. Let's relax and play games. And they started showing up and showing up and showing up. And we can think, Oh, well, they just wanted to play games, but more was happening and they were saying, you know, I'm really stressed out about the way this person's treating me. Or I wonder what Jesus would do. They started having this really tight knit community. And so we shifted it to calling it our covenant group and our covenant group was built around games.

Ryan Dunn [00:11:53]:

And Laura, are you utilizing gaming in a similar fashion, either with Mills Church or just in ministry in general?

Laura Wittman [00:11:59]:

So my husband and I are big gamers. I got Pikachu up on my shelf every year. But we're, we're a big time. In fact, my entire weekend was Tears of the Kingdom. And I got really excited because a friend of mine joked this weekend that their sermon was going to be, you've heard of Tears of the Kingdom, but what about Cheers of the Kingdom? Anyway, that's a whole, I'm glad I didn't make that joke. But we are, we're big gamers and we do a lot of gaming And during the pandemic, actually, with the encouragement of some friends of ours, we spent a lot of time doing what we called Clergy and the Chief. And so it was my husband and I playing the original Halo on Twitch and streaming and having theological conversations with people. That was a lot of fun. That wasn't very long-lived because after a while, I think people got tired of seeing that. But it was an entry point to some conversation with people. Our big, big thing that has carried on continuously was in the beginning of the pandemic, we started playing D&D and found out that that is like our family's, like, that's our shtick now is D&D. Like our kids play it, they love it, but it really started with an online group of clergy during the pandemic that we started playing with because all of us were like, this is a really weird time to be a pastor. Like we need people to relate to. We need people to have conversations with and be honest. And so, don't tell my church people because this is not about anybody in particular, just to be clear. But it would happen every once in a while that an encounter would come up with a bad guy And they would be like the lay leader or the SPRC chair of somebody's church. And that was her way of dealing with problems. Right. So it was a ministry with clergy and for clergy there for a little while. Um, that went on, but that extended into my church.

Ryan Dunn [00:13:52]:

Sorry to interject, but just to unpack that a little bit. So we're the actual monster. It's like, Oh my gosh, you're coming up against the level 5 head of the trustees.

Laura Wittman [00:14:31]:

I need to clarify that. I thought It was going to be like a dragon or, you know, something big, but no, no. Down the road. You know, It's really mad because there's icing ground into the carpet and somebody. Okay. Rocky Mount looks a lot like Icewind Dale sometimes, but that's for the nerds. But that extended into my church. And so we have a group that plays D&D. You know, in my church, we play online most of the time because of people's schedules with kids and everything else. What was interesting though, was that some of our older people in the church started hearing about it. And now we have a group of older adults that's getting ready to kick off a D&D group and they are really excited. So every opportunity we get, we do like D&D lessons, even with our older congregation, and that's been really fun.

Ryan Dunn [00:15:08]:

So are you the dungeon master for that then?

Laura Wittman [00:15:12]:

Sometimes, but I am a little wild as a, you know, because I'm 1 of those like, good chaotic kind of people, which is never good for a dungeon master. So usually I let my husband handle the dungeon mastering, because he's a little more focused than I am.

Ryan Dunn [00:15:27]:

Okay. All right. So you also have kind of the serial starter thing that Joy was talking about?

Laura Wittman [00:15:40]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, when she said that, I was like, Yeah, that's my life. I get really excited. And then I do 10, 000 things. And I'm like, why did I do this? But I still love all the 10, 000 things that I'm doing. So Yeah, I can't say no. And then I'm glad I didn't say no because it's also fun.

Ryan Dunn [00:15:51]:

So this is total aside, but have you heard of the A-Pest test? It's like a personality test for ministry and you're an apostle or a prophet or an evangelist or I think a shepherd or teacher. But I think, you know, just shooting from the hip here, you both would rank as apostles, which is that kind of serial starter, you know, love to kind of stir things up and get things going.

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:16:23]:

I was thinking I'd be the 1, the disciple that's like on the boat and sees Jesus and gets really excited and just like jumps in the water when they're like, Joy, we could have just paddled a ship, but like you jumped in. Okay. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:16:38]:

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Ryan Dunn [00:17:59]:

So You both have expressed that you've been able to build some community through gaming and in your different contexts. What do you think it is about about gaming that has drawn people together in those contexts? And Laura, we keep going to Joy first. So let's, let's start with you on this 1. Like what, what is it like for, for those older folks who are now learning a new game, what are they longing for as they're jumping into that?

Laura Wittman [00:18:28]:

So actually I think for some of them, it's the opportunity to have permission to be silly and have fun. And a lot of times, especially in church, we're so serious, right? Not in my church, but a lot of times we're very serious. And life is just heavy. And I think Having permission to be silly, having permission just to cut up and use your imagination, I think for a lot of people that's very freeing and to realize that it's okay if 1 of their encounters is the pastor upsetting them in a dungeon somewhere. I don't know. But I think just that permission to sort of wrestle with what it is that we're dealing with. I mean, there's been people that have actually used D&D as like therapy tools to sort of help people process what they're going through and how they process the encounter that they're experiencing says a lot about how they handle conflict in real life, or at least how they wish they handled conflict. So I think that's definitely a part of it. I think gaming as a whole, So that the gaming community, and this is true of a lot of NeurDEM, is incredibly inclusive and it works against ableism in a lot of very intentional ways. So, especially for people who are neurodivergent, like me and my entire family, you know, the gaming is a way of including everybody because everybody has a place. I think about even, you know, businesses like Xbox, you know, they have worked very intentionally to find ways where everybody can play video games. Like there's a, whether it's modified controllers, whether it's being able to pull up on your screen and say, hey, I need help with this level. And someone comes on and helps you, like there's all sorts of accessibility things. So I think in that way, It's a gateway to inclusion by breaking down barriers, and it teaches us as a church to meet people where they are and to truly meet them where they are. I think about my kids. I have 3 boys. And it's been so interesting watching these kids that have grown up in the midst of pandemic, right? Because I'm always saying to them, don't you want to invite friends over? When I was your age, I always had friends over. And they're like, why would I invite a friend over? Like, that's a foreign concept to them. But the truth is, they're like, what we want to do together is play video games, and we can do it from anywhere. Our friends are always accessible. They're always there. There's always something to do or some way to encounter somebody.

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:21:09]:

So I think there's a lot of reasons that people find themselves interested in it. But I think the opportunity for creativity, the opportunity to be who you are and having that inclusive space is really really key. I think when we grow up as children were in court courage to play and even as teenagers it's like I'm going to go kick a soccer ball, I did come out of the cheerleading like there was always something some way to play and then all of a sudden you're an adult and you're expected to stop and I don't know it's never said explicitly. But it's really hard to find adult soccer teams or whatever it is you do. You're expected to do like a solo sport, like whether it's running or spent swimming, sometimes tennis, so you can have a partner, but like, that's kind of it. Like, and I think playing games gives you that opportunity to play. I, I just think we're supposed to relax and enjoy life. Life is a gift and like, let's celebrate that.

Ryan Dunn [00:21:55]:

Yeah, you know, even as an adult when talking about it, I think about it, particularly in sports things. If you are getting involved in the sport form of play, it's still tough to have fun. Like there is a pressure on some of the things that I participated in. Like it's not always fun, right? It can be very competitive and there's, I don't know, there's in a sense an edge to it that makes it more anxiety producing than relaxing. So, yeah, I love the idea of introducing a way of actually playing for relaxation. Do you think, Laura or Joy, that as some of these adults who have expressed a want for that that space to play, like have they talked about a specific need for relaxation?

Laura Wittman [00:22:49]:

Oh yeah, I think for some of my people, at least a lot of them, so we have a lot of younger people in my church, but we also have a lot of people who coming out of the pandemic have been dealing with family members who are aging and trying to find ways to get them in spaces that are safe, worrying about their health, all sorts of that. They've got a lot of pressure on them. And I think that opportunity to just sort of cut things off, I mean, it's not like escapism, right? But it's a way to be in community while at the same time having a break. And I think 1 of the things that is so ironic about the pandemic is that we came out being more productive or having the expectation of more productivity than we did before. So now it's not like, oh, I have a trustees meeting this morning. I'm going to be gone because I have to drive to the trustees meeting. Now it's, all right, I've got trustees meeting that's gonna be 30 minutes on Zoom and then 15 other things that I'm gonna do that day. So I think our expectation to always be on and available has gotten worse. So giving people that space to just sort of be able to cut it off and say, this is somehow productive while not being productive, and that's OK.

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:24:07]:

Yeah, so as a youth minister, to maintain safeguarding and safe sanctuaries, you always have to have another volunteer, right? So those are other adults. And I have a couple that volunteers and they alternate whether which partner it is. And but I've heard them like, the other partner will be in the other room. Oh, no, you're playing that 1 tonight. I know I should have signed up like to help this night and we should have flopped or whatever. So I know I always credit my youth because they're so brilliant and they have the most poignant theological responses to things. And I know that's truly why these adults are volunteering, but there's something really cool about how excited they get about games that we're playing.

Ryan Dunn [00:24:53]:

So what are some of the games that they're getting excited about? So you mentioned Jackbox TV. Are there more?

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:24:59]:

Yeah, like there's a way to play Pictionary online that they really enjoy for free. But Jackbox, there's a bunch of different games. So depending on what group I'm working with, I can let them pick their game or pick it ahead of time. So there's drawing games. There's trivia games. There's almost like whose line is it anyway, sorts of games where we laugh. And I mean, I laugh so hard we cry. I had to get off Zoom and like, make sure I didn't pee my pants 1 time because we just have so much fun together. Yeah, it's a great time. I keep thinking also, like, let me know if you're getting bored. I do say that a lot. We've played this game a lot. Let me know if you're getting bored. And they said, do not change this game. Right. So I always try and get their feedback, but every time I switch it up, they get disappointed in me. So

Ryan Dunn [00:25:55]:

are you telling them what you're going to play ahead of time? So in some cases are students showing up because of a specific game?

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:26:01]:

I usually don't, but I always pull them. Like, does this sound like a fun game to play or yeah. And sometimes they will say like, oh, are we going to play this tonight? And I'm like, yeah, It switches my plans, but who cares? We're having fun together.

Ryan Dunn [00:26:20]:

So games for sure have value in drawing people together. But in our context, there's a pressure to say, you know, that's not the end point. You know, the play is not the point. Like, we're drawing people together for community so that we can enter into discipling relationships, right? So how do you make the theological turn? Like, Does it, are you saying like, hey, you remember when we were playing the game? Well, here's how that showed up within Jesus's ministry. I know that's a poor analogy, but you get what I'm saying. Is there a point in which there, that you make a theological turn to draw it into, I guess, a way of faith formation, Or is it enough just to play in some cases?

Laura Wittman [00:27:10]:

Well, you've heard of tears of the kingdom, but have you heard of Jesus? Right. Boom! That's what they call the Jesus juke. Yup. It's when you do the chair flip and the backwards cap and you're like, all right, kids.

Ryan Dunn [00:27:24]:

Now we're, now we're going to talk. Yup.

Laura Wittman [00:27:27]:

You know how link searches for Zelda. So too, are we supposed to follow Jesus? No, I'm kidding. Oh, you're good at this. I think so in my community, because we are, you know, an intentionally affirming community, we have a lot of church hurt and a lot of church suspicion. So in my case, I have to be really, really careful about that, because I think there's definitely an importance to that aspect, but I think the relationship building has to be sincere and a lot of people have a suspicion about like anything that looks like bait-and-switch or you know anything like that. So when I call people to community for that kind of stuff, it's like sheerly community. And after that, I mean, people know who I am. Like they know what I do. And I, it's, there's been a lot of times where I've had people show up and say, okay, now I'm ready to talk about the Jesus thing. And they really do. There's a curiosity there to begin with, or I don't think they would show up in a space like ours if there wasn't any level of curiosity. But I try to truly let the fellowship be the fellowship. And if people want to know more, that's totally okay. And if they don't, that's okay too. And I realize that sounds counter to how we do church a lot of times, but when you're dealing with church hurt and church trauma. I think that's really important.

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:28:51]:

A lot of times the games I play with my youth have a natural ending point. And so we just kind of shift over into a lesson. Sometimes though, I won't play a, I don't know, like a game that's random. I will play a game that I make up. So for instance, we were talking about the Wise Men, and we played a game where I would say, hey, on the count of 3, go find something that you would give to a baby. And they would run and then they would come back and show it. And then I said, on the count of 3, go find something that smells good. So it was all things that the wise men brought to Jesus. And so they were running and having fun, all digitally, just running around their house. And so that 1 connected, and I do that every so often, but more times than not, it's like Laura said, it's fellowship. It is so, so important. Also in my contacts where I'm working with European youth, it's not cool to be a Christian. Like I feel like in the United States, it's kind of the default. A lot of times, like, even if I don't go to church, I'm a Christian here, it's kind of like, who cares? So If they're going, they really care. Um, so it's really easy to switch over because they make a point of it in their lives.

Ryan Dunn [00:30:09]:

Hmm.

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:30:10]:

Good to know.

Ryan Dunn [00:30:12]:

Are there ways that you're engaging people in gaming that are kind of asynchronous so outside of a meeting time

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:30:28]:

Let me think on that March Madness before I Guess I would count. Yeah Yeah, that's a really fun 1. I don't watch any of the games. Sorry, Laura. I know this is like special near and dear to your heart. I don't watch any of the games, but I think doing March Madness is really fun. So we are talking basketball for sure. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. I know. Laura is all about it. I'm think it's cool that people are passionate about it.

Laura Wittman [00:31:04]:

First child is named after Cameron and or stadium. So we're a little passionate.

Ryan Dunn [00:31:14]:

That's that's now never mind. It's going to make it. I was going to make a North Carolina Duke joke, but, uh, yeah, it's just too easy. Fodder them. You know, it's funny that you bring that, that up though, Joy, because, um, there are a number of kind of tournament systems where we've seen some people pivot into that. So 1 of our early episodes of pastoring in the digital parish, we talked about Lent Madness, if you've heard of that, where some priests set up saints of the church, and you get to vote for your favorite saint at a time. And it's been cool to watch the community that coalesces around that. Yeah, and so there are some ways of, I think engaging people in kind of a voting system like that that is fun and endearing and also draws people together in community. Um, I was thinking about something like snap streaks, not that that's ever anything that I've engaged in, but you know, are there ways that, that you all have engaged in either a community or a game, an ongoing game, like a massive multi-online game, because it draws you back on the daily? Are there ways that we've been able to apply that in the ministry in any way?

Laura Wittman [00:32:38]:

The closest I can think to that is at the very beginning when Animal Crossing came out, because there was a lot of like, you know, here's my dream code, come visit my island and getting together. And I know there were a couple of times that we had some very intentional gatherings like on Animal Crossing over Discord and Animal crossing just to sort of gather people together, you know, in different ways. But in our context, I don't think that's something that we've done as much.

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:33:12]:

I think, so this is just me personally. I've never been a Snapchat person. I have tried and tried and tried to get into it. And you just can't like for some reason, it's just not my platform. Um, and so I haven't used it in ministry either, cause I can't find a way to make it like safe as a youth minister to use it, all that stuff. So that's not my jam. Um, I have to giveaways on Instagram, so I guess that could count too. Oh, you know what? I just remembered. I preached at a, um, a youth camp once and we did an Instagram. You go joy. I forgot about this 1. And I had I had in 1 of my messages I told them I want you to find a way you see God in nature this weekend posted to Instagram hashtag this and then I'll pick the winner and they got a Starbucks gift so it was a pretty cool game and it was asynchronous because they could post whenever they wanted.

Ryan Dunn [00:34:09]:

Yeah and did you find it you got pretty good response to that?

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:34:12]:

Yeah they were really funny some of the like Some of the captions were like this beautiful song, and then some of them were like, pick me, I love Starbucks.

Ryan Dunn [00:34:25]:

Yeah.

Laura Wittman [00:35:18]:

I think for me, so we've, this is sort of in a balanced struggle in my church and we're working on it as I think a lot of churches are, if we're being honest. I was in Colorado a couple weeks ago for a church planters gathering and 1 of the big topics was digital and hybrid ministry and how do we start, you know, working on that in a more intentional way, because right now, like in my church, we have a lot of people who only join us online, who don't live anywhere near us, right? And it is really hard to help those people to feel super engaged in the church. And so 1 of the things we've really been challenging our lead team and members of the church to do is when you see somebody engaging with us online, reach out, like talk to them, have a conversation, you know, just tell them you're a part of the church even if you're not here. And I think that gaming is a way to bridge that gap between people and between distances. So when we do have people that are engaged with us online, it may be really intimidating to show up to a Zoom Bible study where they don't know any of these people and try to talk and share these intimate details of their life. But if we're in the middle of a game, there's opportunities to share and to meet 1 another in a space that is more of an equalizer, I think. So that's my hope is figuring out ways to keep leaning into that, to figure out how to do hybrid ministry together across the board, but especially in ways that truly build community and relationship.

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:36:59]:

Being in ministry with young people keeps me, I would like to say it keeps me young, but I think it keeps reminding me that I'm not. But 1 thing we do see, like as a possibility, is using TikTok more strategically. Like there's all these like TikTok trends or like make a dance on TikTok and then like you do a duet with somebody also doing it. So I think there's something really cool that could happen with that. And I think I just have to get brave enough to be the 1 that creates content.

Ryan Dunn [00:37:35]:

Yeah, um, yeah, that's for sure a challenge, especially for some of us, it just don't feel like we have that much to say.

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:37:45]:

And like my youth kind of know that I'm trying, but I'm just not there yet. So they'll be like, Joy, you can get on TikTok. They have great recipes. Like, thank you so much. That's so kind.

Laura Wittman [00:37:57]:

But this is true. Our communion bread recipe that I make every week came from TikTok. So, you know. Well, there you go. Wow.

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:38:05]:

It's not shown up in my algorithm yet, so I'll have to go searching.

Ryan Dunn [00:38:09]:

It will now, it's out there. And somehow they know.

Laura Wittman [00:38:15]:

They always know.

Ryan Dunn [00:38:18]:

Well, thank you both so much for joining us and for sharing your experiences. And I just love learning about the ministries that y'all are up to. So yeah, any final thoughts for our audience?

Joy Van Staalduinen [00:38:34]:

Before pre-pandemic, I had a really close clergy friend of mine that said, you know, digital ministry is amazing for sustaining things, but it's hard to create ministries in a digital parish. And I think it is hard. She led me to believe it was impossible, and I don't think it is. I think it's definitely possible. And I hope it doesn't take us another pandemic to fully see that, but I think we need to really dive in and things can be created digitally.

Ryan Dunn [00:39:04]:

Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:39:06]:

Amen. I'm here for it.

Ryan Dunn [00:39:09]:

Yeah. That's gonna put a wrap on this session of pastoring in the digital parish. You want to learn more about ministry with young people? Well, then check out the episode called Digital Parish Real Community with Lexi Hernandez. It came out in May of 2023. Another cool follow-up to this episode would be Digital Discipleship and Worldwide Community with Ann Bosarge. Ann shared some more tools for building online community and encouraging engagement. And that episode came out in March of 2023. Again, I'm Ryan Dunn. I'd like to thank ResourceUMC, the online destination for leaders throughout the United Methodist church. They make this podcast possible. And of course they host our website, pastoringinthedigitalparish.com, where you can find more online resources for ministry. I also wanna thank Safer Sanctuaries for their support. Again, Safer Sanctuaries Nurturing Trust Within Faith Communities is a new and comprehensive resource that continues the tradition of Safe Sanctuaries ministry by building on its trusted policies and procedures. This resource contains theological grounding for the work of abuse prevention, basic guidelines for risk reduction, age level specific guidance, and step-by-step instructions on how to develop, revise, update, and implement an abuse prevention plan. If you want to connect with Pastoring in the Digital Parish, check out our Pastoring in the Digital Parish group on Facebook, And you can also send me questions and ideas for future sessions at digitalparishatumcom.org. Another session comes next week. In the meantime, Peace.