Digital Parish: Planting digital first, Substack and Oikon Church

Ryan Dunn (00:01):

Hi, this is pastoring in the Digital Parish, your resource and point of connection for building digital ministry strategy and bringing your congregation into the digital age. My name is Ryan Dunn. How does a church move from a digital or online ministry to an in-person meeting group? What does it look like to plant a church in the midst of a pandemic? And what digital tools set up a new church for growth in the 2020s? Are you asking any of these questions or are you just curious about what all that looks like in today's ministry landscape? Well, we're talking with Mike Whang of Oikon Church in Houston, Texas in this session. And Pastor Mike is gonna share with us the story of planting at first a digital ministry that has added or implemented in-person gatherings. He'll share with us some of the tools that he's using and his crew team is using to communicate with the congregation of Vocon. And this includes some clever uses for ck. Mike Wong is currently the lead and founding pastor of Vocon United Methodist Church in Houston. He'll share a bit more about his background, including that he also is a Duke grad, as am I, in fact, I I think that we actually overlapped in our time there. Anyways, let's talk church planting, Substack and the shape of ministry to come with Pastor Mike Whang.

(01:27):

Mike Whang, thanks so much for joining us on pastoring in the Digital Parish. Kind of a softball question, I hope to start you off with. How goes it with your soul today? <Laugh>.

Mike Whang (01:36):

Wow. Wow. That's a curve ball, man. That wasn't <laugh>, that was not in the the notes that you sent over. It was

Ryan Dunn (01:45):

Not,

Mike Whang (01:46):

But I, I actually really appreciate that question. I feel like so much conversation that I have with pastors and with conference leaders around the function and practices and methods of being a pastor just dodges the question of how is it with our souls and makes prayer seem peripheral optional to the work that we're doing. So thank you for asking this unprepared question. <Laugh>. I woke up with a sore throat, so I don't actually sound like this Ryan, but I think it sounds kind of cool to talk with the raspy voice. Oh, yeah. Uhhuh <affirmative>. But, you know, so I've spent most of my day being silent and you know, there's something there's some sort of portal when you're forced to be silent, you know, your soul becomes forced to contemplate a little bit more and not offer your thought all, all the time in a conversation. So my soul is grateful to have some minor physical illness this morning to that would prompt me to be more reflective as we begin the season of Lent.

Ryan Dunn (02:58):

Yeah. It crazy how sometimes we like embrace the little maladies that we have, because it does offer us a sort of a break from the pace of life, right?

Mike Whang (03:06):

Yeah, yeah,

Ryan Dunn (03:08):

Yeah. Well, I'm gonna stretch you a little bit and ask you to talk. Imagine that a pastor who I wanted to talk <laugh>. I wanna know the, the story of Oah church. So like, why start a church in 2020? Where did it come from?

Mike Whang (03:22):

Yeah, it's a, it's a really strange, peculiar story. So, I was a part of a large United Methodist church in Houston called Chapel Wood. And they asked me to start a new worship service there. And being a arrogant, fresh outta seminary, especially Duke Divinity School graduate, I told them very pretentiously,

Ryan Dunn (03:48):

Those Duke people, they

Mike Whang (03:49):

Know those Dookies, man, man, I, yeah. That could be a whole nother podcast, pretentious seminary. Anyways, I responded to them by saying that I don't believe worship services make disciples of Jesus Christ <laugh>. And we kind of had this back and forth. And ultimately we ended up starting several what we called house churches. So small groups. We believed that discipleship happens in the context of relationships, and we were beginning to form what would become our core values of ocon, which are covenant formation and justice. Anyways, we start these groups after a while, they ask us, so when's that worship service starting? And we start worship services in 2019, so about a year prior to the pandemic. Right. So we're, yeah. Okay. The ministry of a large United Methodist Church in Houston when the pandemic hits few months in a lot of shifts taking place in the church at large.

(04:49):

And the senior pastor and I had some differences as far as what we thought would be best for the community that had formed around the Oon ministry. And so, as you do in a connectional system, we had conversation with the district superintendent and the bishop. And to my surprise I was appointed to start a new congregation when it was absolutely unsafe to meet in person in October of 2020. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so, you know, we have been doing worship online, but it's one thing to be a ministry of a larger church doing online ministry versus being your own congregation. But that was in October of 2020. We, yeah. Had it just an online community, online worship, online, small groups. And then about a year in, we started meeting once a month in person when it was safer. And then we started meeting in person every week in April of last year. Gosh, it's 2023, these covid years, man, they're all a blur

Ryan Dunn (05:49):

<Laugh>. Right.

Mike Whang (05:50):

And now we're, we're trying to shift to meeting. So, so we sh Yeah. It's, it's all a blur to me, man. So, yeah, I feel like started four different churches at this point, but basically we started a church online and we said, what what kind of church do we want to be? And, and instead of asking how can we do church better, how can we do church different, what does it mean to be a digital church? Like asking these innovative questions, we ask the more fundamental question, what is a church like at the end of the day, what is a local church? And what we land on in asking that question and searching the scriptures is that the local church is a covenant community, a network of relationships of people who say to one another, you can count on me. I'm gonna pray for you. I'm gonna be present in your life. We're gonna follow Jesus together. We're gonna serve the world together. It's the baptismal vows, but taken seriously in a personal context. And so that has been unchanging throughout from October, 2020 till now. But the form, the packaging of what Sundays look like has changed. And communications of how to communicate with the church has changed dramatically since then. But we're trying our best to just keep those guiding values that we believe the spirit has put in our hearts at the forefront of what we're doing.

Ryan Dunn (07:09):

Well, when you started digitally you eventually moved on to kind of accenting the digital gatherings with the in-person gatherings. Do you think really that was always the plan to, to move towards the in-person stuff? Or were you really just kind of asking the question all the way along?

Mike Whang (07:27):

Yeah, the, there was no plan, dude. There was no, like, this is what it's gonna look like in, in 2023 or 2022. It was just like, look, we have a, a small community of folks that are devoted to these values. What does it look like for us to live into these values today? And that has meant at the start, you know, given that it wasn't safe to meet worshiping online and meeting in small, smaller groups on Zoom. But y you know, as we all know now, you know, while it's convenient, and while, you know, the spirit does show up in Zoom calls, it does not replace that tangible you know, being in the same space as someone embracing someone. And so we yeah, we made shifts along the way, but I can't say that we had a plan okay, we had, we had values mm-hmm. <Affirmative>

Ryan Dunn (08:26):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. What were those values? Or are those values?

Mike Whang (08:29):

Yeah, so our three core guiding values are covenant community, spiritual formation, social justice. These are aspiring values, right? Guiding values. We don't believe that we have obtained or arrived, but when we when we study the early church and what, and what the early church was about, what we see is you know, Jesus doesn't, doesn't go around saying, I want you to believe what I believe, or I want you to think this way, or I want you to join this political movement. Jesus' main invitation is, come follow me. And it, it is a holistic transformation of the person. And so I kind of bake in Wesley and soteriology in the spiritual form. Here's pretentious Duke language. Sorry about that. <Laugh>

(09:22):

Define. So, yeah, yeah. Soteriology meaning, you know, we, my teaching, our teaching on salvation, what John Wesley taught about salvation is that salvation isn't just going to heaven when you die. It is being restored in the present time. It's also a restoration of all things, not just not just the individual. And so what, what we believe the Christian faith is about being transformed, being formed into the image of God and the present time. So when we think about what we're doing as a church, we always ask that question, does this result in spiritual formation? Because if not, we don't have the energy or the capacity, it's not worth our time. Our other core value is social justice. Of course, we were started in October of 2020 on the back end of all this social unrest around racial inequities. And George Floyd and I think everyone in our nation was asking, what is the point of the church?

(10:25):

What is the point of following Jesus if it does not result in any material societal transformation and healing? And so it was actually a real gift to have that at the forefront of our consciousness as we developed our core values. Because now the work of justice is never peripheral. When we talk about who we are, I think we're still aspiring to figure out, you know, how to best live into that. So, for instance, during the season of Lent, you know, we're partnering with a small nonprofit in our community to help serve 15 single mothers, many of whom are incarcerated. And if social justice was not written into our core value system maybe like a few Enneagram type one s would've, like, like, like I said, let's do this and like, you know, created some sort of project. But because it's, it's central to who we are, even aspirationally, we're able to mobilize the whole church to do it.

(11:28):

And then, and then I, I spoke to it a little bit earlier, but covenant is our understanding of what a local church is. So, you know, we live in a highly, highly transactional consumerist framework of church in America. If, you know, if, if the preacher isn't preaching just right, if the reverb settings on the electric guitar pedal aren't just quite right, then I'm not gonna worship your we said, what if the church was not a matter of preference, but a matter of calling, like, I don't like you or your kids, but for some reason God keeps calling me to journey alongside of you. Right? Like, I, like, I, I don't really like the teaching or the music here, but there is something beyond me that's calling and pushing me to join you in following Jesus in this particular community, in this particular location. So I guess those are, yeah. Our three guiding values that help orient who we are and what we do. And we start there, we're all like, and I'm so proud of our church for having a spirit of experimentation when it comes to how do we best live this out? Because without a spirit of experimentation, we would not have survived the, the many world crises that have, you know, been a part of our existence since we started.

Ryan Dunn (12:47):

Hmm. So you, you began informing your identity around principles and values rather than oftentimes the normal church starts starts around with a, an identity of place. Right. so I'm wondering how that is translated to going from just a strictly digital expression of church into it in place, embodied I guess body Yeah. Of church as well. Like, ha, were there people who you connected with in the early days who mm-hmm. <Affirmative> have found it a challenge to participate in the full breadth of the church now that you've started the in-person practice?

Mike Whang (13:25):

Yeah, man, you're a great podcaster. That's a great <laugh> com That's a great question because we, yeah, it, it, it has been quite a challenge to shift from online to in-person. Hmm. It, like, for anybody to go from worshiping in pajamas to taking a shower and getting your children ready and driving a commute to a place of worship and orienting yourself to a, you know, space. Yeah. It, it, I think once the novelty wears off, when whenever you start something new, right? You, you start to see what is the cost of fully participating in this? And am I willing to participate? And at the same time, there's others for whom the online expression was like, this is really hard for me to connect with people through a device. And through like watching a pre-recorded sermon, but being here, it fills my soul in a different way.

(14:24):

So, to answer your question it, the, it has been very different, right? But you, you, you have like the group of folks who are bought into the values and are willing to go on the adventure of what it looks like to give our lives to these values. And those folks are kind of constant, you know, when we started all online, we have folks tuning in from like north Texas, California, and Australia. And I think we kind of in the, in the, in the course of time, you know, prayed with them and discerned like, what is God really doing in your life? And what is God doing in the life of this experiment called [inaudible]? Are we supposed to be like an online resource, or is this covenant lived out, you know, particularly in, in, in particular locale. And I think the, we made some shifts to focus more on the southwest and west side of Houston. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I've still maintained relationships with folks, but encourage them, like folks in California and elsewhere. But I've encouraged them to find a local congregation to be a part of. But it all kind of goes back to not having a plan <laugh> in a positive sense, but leaning into values and just trying to follow the spirit wherever the spirit is leading.

Ryan Dunn (15:51):

Yeah. Well, I do wanna note that when it comes to 2020, like every plan that anybody had made had been That's right. Balled up and tossed into the circular file, right, <laugh>. That's right. That's right. And we're all just like adapting to however, yeah. And, and even trying to forecast from that point, like, Hey, what are we gonna be doing in five years is pointless, because whatever it is we're doing now was probably not what we're planning on doing in 2020. Right. So,

Mike Whang (16:16):

Yeah, I think that's actually been a gift for churches to be able to have that sense of adventure and experimentation. I'm, I know for risk averse folks, it's kind, it can be scary, but that tends to be how the spirit moves throughout history, I think is forcing the church, urging the church beyond Jerusalem, beyond what we know to be comfortable.

Ryan Dunn (16:39):

Yeah. One of the exciting notes of this time I, I've picked up on is a sense of permission giving mm-hmm. That I just didn't feel like was present there before. Like, there is a sense of permission and like, okay, go try it and see if it works. You know? Yeah. Have there been some, some experiments that you've performed for Icon that have been more learning experiences than success experiences?

Mike Whang (17:03):

Oh, yeah, man, we've mostly failed. Okay. we, we have succeeded. I, I don't like that language actually failing, succeeding. We have made many adjustments and adaptations along the way. And I think the biggest one for me was when we shifted to do weekly in-person worship in April of last year. It was like three weeks in, and I felt like I was leading our congregation down the wrong path. Hmm. I felt like this was going to lead to exhaustion and burnout for our volunteers. And then I just, and then, then I was asking the question like, does 52 worship services with monologue hoolies result in spiritual formation and social justice? And I asked, I posed that question to our leadership team, and then also like, with, in our present context, does this make sense for us? Like, does this help us arrive at our destination of our values? And and we kind of unanimously concluded, no. Mm-Hmm.

Ryan Dunn (18:12):

<Affirmative>. Okay.

Mike Whang (18:13):

And so we went to a hybrid model where once a month we met for worship in potluck, and then we met in homes on the second Sunday. And every third Sunday was like a service project, right. Living into the justice value. And the fourth Sundays we worshiped online. We have a lot of young mothers or mothers with young, young children. Yeah, sure. Okay. And so so for them, like making it out to worship on a Sunday is first of all really difficult, but when you get there, also that kids are really needy. So it's really difficult to engage. So, you know, for, for the sake of the context of our demographic, we shifted back to being online once a month.

Ryan Dunn (18:57):

Okay. Alright. So there hasn't been a plan in the past. Is there a plan now to continue with this kind of digital rhythm?

Mike Whang (19:09):

I am learning that it is time to draw up a plan.

Ryan Dunn (19:13):

Okay. <laugh>, <laugh>.

Mike Whang (19:16):

And I think in, in, in the life of our church, you know, we started with such a, in such an unprecedented time, and that spirit of adventure and experimenting and not having a plan, but like seeing what is the spirit up to meant a lot of, you know, just being open. But now things have been kind of steady in terms of covid, in terms of the, the core of our community. And so yeah, our church right now is discerning what is, what is how is God leading us to, it's, again, back to the values to be a community devoted to formation and justice and covenant, and what does that look like five years from now? Because things are kind of steadying out and how do we arrive there? But yeah, that spirit of experimentation is, is so vital for our congregation.

(20:13):

 We had a guest speaker at our first retreat, Tricia Taylor, who like, works with dysfunctional churches and helps them you know, recalibrate their values. I asked her to come and help us to, you know, be prepared for when we do become a dysfunctional congregation, <laugh>. And, okay. That was one of the words that she gave us, was that that you guys are a holy experiment. And the moment that you cease to be an experiment, the moment you stop asking, you know, what will God do when a group of people from different backgrounds gather together and say, let's pursue covenant formation and justice. Like, the moment you stop asking what is the spirit up to? And start saying, well, this is how we've always done it in the past. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> she said, that's when it's gonna be over for you guys. And, you know, she has experience working with churches all over the nation. So that word has really resonated and stuck with our congregation. And so moving forward as, even as we make plans and try to live into them I hope that we'll always have a kind of nimble spirit that was, I think, gifted to us by way of starting a church in 2020. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn (21:22):

Well, I've seen some of the nimbleness and practice in the ways that Oikon is picked up on some of the, I guess, tools available for communication in ministry. So I came across Oikon because I had some friends who were like, Hey, have started using this thing called Substack and you should check it out. And I got on there, I was like, I wonder how churches or if churches are using that. And somehow that landed me in the space of, of Oikon church. Wow. And and so I, I signed up and, and have followed along with, with everything that y'all are delivering through that I don't know what to call it. App platform, platform, I guess is the right way to call it. Yeah. and there's a rhythm to it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I, I can pick up on the community rhythm and the way that it tends to, to draw people into a connection with each other through uniting people in, in mind and heart through their practice in the week. Why did y'all decide on using ck

Mike Whang (22:26):

Yeah. Church communication is like the hardest thing. I'm sure you know this really well,

Ryan Dunn (22:33):

Right? I've heard that. Yeah. <laugh>.

Mike Whang (22:35):

Yeah. Like, well,

Ryan Dunn (22:36):

There's, because there's always somebody who says, oh, I didn't know that

Mike Whang (22:39):

<Laugh>. Yeah, exactly.

Ryan Dunn (22:39):

Did you talk about

Mike Whang (22:40):

That? There's all, and, and the pastor's like, well, in the church announcements, in the bulletin, in the mailer, in the online inbox, whatever. So I think church communication will forever be a challenge. We were using MailChimp. Yeah. and I just, I, I couldn't stand the, the, the ui, the, the user interface and the experience on my end. Like, it just was so complex. You shout out to MailChimp if you're listening and you MailChimp <laugh>. And so I just started, you know, looking for, you know, what other email, like newsletter things are available, platforms are available. And I think I had some friends from seminary who are writing blog posts on sub and sub's. Cool. Because it's like, it, it goes straight to your inbox, but it also creates this really beautiful archive that looks more like a website and a blog than than anything. And so, like, if somebody misses the inbox, they can always go to the website and, and, and locate it. And then, you know, we use it to like post our Sunday bulletins. So our liturgies are posted on their weekly announcements, small group discussion guides. Like it's, it, it, it is the central hub now for all things. Oikon communication

Ryan Dunn (24:08):

Was there when you were making that shift over was there a little bit of resistance and then, well, now you're asking me to sign up for something else, or, yeah. Or did you hear that ghost of Church Past who said, well, we, we've always used MailChimp. Why wouldn't use some <laugh>?

Mike Whang (24:23):

Well, MailChimp, okay. Shout out again to MailChimp. I'm gonna bash them again, man. They

Ryan Dunn (24:27):

Won't be sponsoring any <laugh>. Ok. I'll get it. That's fine.

Mike Whang (24:32):

<Laugh>, you can edit this out. Like, it just, it, it was so frustrating cuz everything was going into the spam, you know, in people's inboxes. Okay. Yeah. And so I don't think we had like a good sustainable like the, be I, I'll tell you this, the best form of church communication has always been personal text messages from the pastor to the, to individual church members, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And I know that's not scalable, but and Church Star it is. So, so it was either that, it was that and MailChimp, right? <Laugh>

Ryan Dunn (25:08):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Okay.

Mike Whang (25:09):

And then like online worship stuff. And so I just, we just needed to replace MailChimp and so there was no real resistance. I'm sure there's still some folks who like, haven't yet subscribed to the Substack you know, cuz there's always gonna be folks like that. Yeah. But for the most part, it's, you

Ryan Dunn (25:27):

Already named it, the benefit there is that they still get the information if they're proactive. Like they can just look at the website and there's a whole trail of that, so.

Mike Whang (25:34):

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn (25:37):

Well, are there other features embedded within Substack that you've found particularly helpful to the ministry?

Mike Whang (25:43):

Yeah. You know, now it's sounding like we're sponsored by Substack <laugh>. That's

Ryan Dunn (25:46):

<Laugh>, right? I, you caught me. We're we're moving away from MailChimp, going for that

Mike Whang (25:51):

CK Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. <Laugh>. but, but yeah, I, I don't know, I didn't know much about ck but it seems like a platform that really caters to the creator or the author. I think it's primarily a platform for writers. And so I, I, I think they're always coming out with new features, and recently they came out with I don't know how recent, but recently we've been implementing their podcasting features. So been able to just upload audio and that audio goes straight to people's inbox. Hmm. and, and, you know, on their own time church folks can listen to it. So it's, and it's nice to have it all centralized.

Ryan Dunn (26:28):

Yeah. Tell me about that audio. Like what kind of audio are you putting out there?

Mike Whang (26:33):

I'm recording until microphone <laugh>. Okay. You know, running it through some software and then, and just hitting upload.

Ryan Dunn (26:41):

And content wise, is it you just kind of like, Hey, pastor's thoughts for the week or?

Mike Whang (26:46):

Yeah, I mean, we've only experimented just a handful of times, but it's been a a, a podcast called the Holy Experiment playing again on the church being [inaudible] being an experiment of living into values. And it's just the conversation with myself and our, our, our church our kids director, and we just kind of talk about the life of the church. I'll let you know if like a, if if I, I don't know how many folks are listening. I don't think the whole church is listening, but they have access to it. And so, yeah, like, like I said from the beginning, man, we don't really have a clear game plan with all of this. We're just having fun living into our values. So I think it's fun to just hit record and talk about what God is doing in the life of our church, and then we'll see what evolves from there.

Ryan Dunn (27:36):

Yeah. What excites you about the future of Oikon? Like what fun thing are you dreaming of next?

Mike Whang (27:43):

You know in, in the last two, three years of, of being a church that values covenant formation and justice there have been just some rich friendships that have formed. And I subscribe to Eugene Peterson's model of the pastorate, where the goal of the pastor is to pray, read the Bible, and be attentive to the people in their congregation. So I make it a point to learn the names of all the children and all the people of our congregation. And so there's just this beautiful community and, and, and and, and our church leaders model that form of leadership as well, where it's all highly relational. And so what excites me is nothing innovative. There's no like technology or worship service that excites me. It's the deepening of those relationships and the unfolding of living into our values as a network not only of churchgoers, but of of friends who are devoted to one another and then seeing who else God brings into the fold to, to help shape how we live into our values. Hmm.

Ryan Dunn (29:01):

Well, pastor Mike, you have a Substack personally as well, correct?

Mike Whang (29:05):

That's true. It it is, Sit is dormant, but it is. Okay. It is it, it is online. Yes.

Ryan Dunn (29:12):

Yeah, I was wondering if that was like a, a good place for people to like check up on what you're doing, or should they just go to the Ocon website?

Mike Whang (29:22):

So during Lent, you'll, you should just email me if you, if you wanna

Ryan Dunn (29:27):

<Laugh> I gotcha. Yeah,

Mike Whang (29:28):

If you wanna connect. So Mike Ocon, O I k o n ht x.org g. But yeah, I'm on CK and the usual social media platforms.

Ryan Dunn (29:39):

Boom. Well, and since you brought up Lent, we are recording this at the, really the very beginning of Lent what what does the rhythm of life look like for Ocon through this, this time of Lent?

Mike Whang (29:53):

So you mean like just our week to week leading? Yeah. yeah. So it's church as usual, you know we have small groups meeting throughout the week, worship on Sundays once a month now we meet in homes. And I'm encouraging our church to engage in prayer and fasting. So there's nothing innovative about our church during the season of lead. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn (30:24):

All right. One last question for you. You just keep bringing up these things that I'm curious about. Like, what do the in-home gatherings look like? Certainly you're not going to all of them right. So they just kind of organically led or, or how does that work and, you know, what kind of rhythm is there within the in-home gathering?

Mike Whang (30:45):

Yeah, it's very basic. Usually there's food and then there's an icebreaker question, you know, to make people feel like, oh, these are human beings. And then moment of silence and then Lao Davina practice, you know, read the scriptures and then a few reflection questions in addition to that. And then a time of sharing gratitudes and prayer requests and praying for one another. It's, yeah, it's nothing extraordinary, but it is through those ordinary means of connecting and opening up the Bible and sharing life together that the Holy Spirit keeps showing up. So yeah.

Ryan Dunn (31:30):

All right. Well, thank you Aton for sharing the story of Oikon with us and for sharing yourself with us. So so truly appreciate it very much, pastor Mike.

Mike Whang (31:40):

Yeah, thanks, Ryan. It's been fun.

Ryan Dunn (31:42):

Bella's a fun conversation. Big thanks again to Pastor Mike for the time. If you want to have more fun with pastoring in the digital parish, then check out more episodes. What Amazon e-commerce and AI can teach the church with Jason Caston from January of 2023 that also talks about some surprising tools for digital ministry. And of course, the shape of things to come or check out Navigating The Digital Reformation with Ryan Panzer from September of 2022, that has some relevance for our conversation today as well. Again, my name is Ryan Dunn. I'd like to thank resource c.org, the online destination for leaders throughout the United Methodist Church. They make this podcast possible, and of course, they host our website, pastoring in the digital parish.com, where you can find more online resources for ministry. If you want to connect with me, check out our pastoring in the Digital parish group on Facebook. It's a really supportive community. You can also send me questions and ideas for future sessions at Digital parish@com.org. Another session comes next week. So in the meantime, peace.