Digital Parish: Pastoral care in the age of technology

Ryan Dunn [00:00:00]:
Welcome to another episode of Pastoring in the Digital Parish. I'm reverend Ryan Dunn. And today, we're venturing into the intricate intersection of faith in the digital world with a very special guest, doctor Deanna Thompson. Deanna brings a unique perspective to our discussion having been ministered to through digital means during her ongoing battle with an incurable form of cancer. Her journey from a digital skeptic to an advocate is not just inspiring, it's revelatory for the time in which we find ourselves. We'll explore strategies for engaging with younger or digital natives. We will discuss the need for guiding conversations on ethical behavior online and how religious institutions might shepherd their flocks in the new virtual parish. So expect to really get the importance of creating community covenants for digital behavior and the often underestimated potential of digital technology in times of suffering.

Ryan Dunn [00:01:04]:
We're out moving through this digital ministry transformation together, so I wanna invite you to connect to our little community of learning on Facebook. There's a pastoring in the Digital Parish Facebook group. You can just search that out. Join the conversation there. We're trading ideas, getting answers to questions, and sharing some of our digital ministry successes. In this episode, we're getting ideas from doctor Deanna Thompson. She's an author, speaker, and the director of the Lutheran Center For Faith Values Dunn Community and Martin e Marti Regent's chair of religion and the academy at St. Olaf College in Northfield, Minnesota.

Ryan Dunn [00:01:44]:
Several years ago, she wrote a book called The Virtual Body of Christ in a Suffering World. You should add it to your digital ministry library if you haven't already. It has sound ideas for how we can support one another online, and it provides some great real world justification for the continuance of ministry that focuses on digital spaces. So join us as we seek understanding and share some insights with doctor Deanna Thompson on the challenges and triumphs of pastoring in the digital parish. Deanna Thompson, thank you so much for joining us on pastoring in the digital parish. Before we get into the deep theological, practical conversation, Dunn goes it with your soul?

Deanna Thompason [00:02:30]:
It's great to be here, Ryan. Thanks for the invitation.

Ryan Dunn [00:02:33]:
You bet.

Deanna Thompason [00:02:35]:
Well, I, part of maybe what we'll get to in terms of the book, it part of my passion around digital technology has to do with my own experience of living with an incurable form of breast cancer. And, I was in remission number 4, and I just went out of remission number 4. So I'm being treated for new tumors that have come on my back and hoping that, the new medication will take care of those. So hoping for remission, number 5.

Ryan Dunn [00:03:08]:
Alongside you. So the missus, I thank you so much for for being here and taking this time with us as we, well, you mentioned that that a lot of your experience in into digital ministry has come, through the lens of of this, at times needing to be removed from Right. The traditional form of the ways in which we gather. Yeah. For safety's sake and comfort's sake and and health's sake. And out of that experience, you did write a book 8 years ago, the virtual body of Christ in a suffering world. The world has shifted a little bit since when that that book came out in terms of the way that we think about digital community and how we build relationship in digital spaces. How has your perspective on digital ministry changed since the book came out? What might you add today? Yeah.

Deanna Thompason [00:04:01]:
It's a great question. I was a digital skeptic before I got sick. And then after I got sick, I became converted to the potential power of digital technology to really help care for people when they're really suffering. And pre pandemic, I was reaching I was trying to reach a largely skeptical non evangelical mainline protestant audience, many of whom were really, working on functioning websites at that point and not really very interested in, thinking about digital connection, in any kind of substantial or meaningful way. And so one of the big things that has changed just in terms of the conversations I'm having is that with the pandemic, most everyone has now experienced life online, and that was not the case. You know? Very few of us had done Zoom and had done all these other things that now we have many most of us have done during the pandemic. And one of the things I find really interesting is there are still many skeptics, and I'm sure we'll talk more about that. At the same time with some, asking some good questions, some digging, some probing, I find that with most everyone, we can get to some sort of affirmation about the ways in which digital online connections can be really helpful, can be meaningful people.

Deanna Thompason [00:05:46]:
So many people had really surprising experiences during the pandemic. I never would have imagined that I could connect with my siblings, like and now we meet every week on Zoom. I mean, I hear this kind

Ryan Dunn [00:05:58]:
of stuff. Family story exactly.

Deanna Thompason [00:06:00]:
Yes. I hear that kind of stuff every day. And that really shifts the conversation because people, I think, are more willing to consider that this is our reality, that this digital, these digital spaces are part of our lives Dunn that they have the potential to be meaningful spaces, to allow us meaningful connection. For me has shifted a bit more is that I talk in the book about 2 major approaches to our technological reality. And 1 is being more of a determinist, being a technological determinist. And that means, you know, the the space or the digital tools we use kinda shape our interactions, and this is where we get a lot of critique. You know? It's not as good as in person. It's all it has all these bad characteristics.

Deanna Thompason [00:06:59]:
And the other side is technological instrumentalist, and that's where I fall is more on the instrumentalist side. And that means that I think these are tools that we can use to, Dunn used well. I don't think we can just I don't think every situation with digital technology is awesome. Yeah. I think there are ways it falls, woefully short of offering meaningful connection. But I do think that we do have control and agency over how we use these tools. But in the last 8 years, I have become more sobered about just the massive power that, platforms have to shape interactions that, you know, we have some real serious, serious global issues, issues in our political system that are really they're it's not just the fault of social media or online, interaction, but those things really play, I think, an important role. And so at some level, I'm really interested in talking even more with religious communities and with institutions educational institutions about helping foster conversations about how with the agency we do have, in those situations.

Deanna Thompason [00:08:27]:
So I but I do I think I in the book in 2016, I I don't have the the the level of kind of depth of appreciation of the way in which things can go really wrong in online spaces. And I think I think it's really important to to be honest about that, to lift those up, to say we're up against, some really challenging, context.

Ryan Dunn [00:08:56]:
What are you thinking of when you're thinking of things that go wrong in on online spaces? What are the symptoms of some of the ills of of the digital movement?

Deanna Thompason [00:09:07]:
Yeah. I think that one of the things I've been you know, you you and I have thought about the that I'm in a context of young people, and I've been teaching, classes with young people about online spaces. And one of the things that's really hard for young people is those spaces aren't really monitored. And so when a student, for example, will experience bullying or harassment, it takes there's not the same sort of eyes on a particular community's eyes on that student's experience. If that happens in a hallway at school, maybe someone hears about it and maybe they'll report it, maybe not. But when it happens online, often Dunn kind of away from much of their in person life where there are, adults who are kinda watching over that. They're just sort of on, the there's not those Dunn, observers in the same way. And and I know students feel really, sometimes kind of alone in in that they're experiencing these things.

Deanna Thompason [00:10:21]:
And unless they have the ability to kind of inform an adult, get an adult involved in that kinda online space, that a lot of times they're kinda navigating that on their own, and that can be really, really difficult. I also think just how quickly, misinformation can spread. We now have just, people who have really, very, almost completely different understandings of of what is news, what are the what is happening in major events. And and so that's these are these are massive challenges. And, again, I would come back to this is the world we live in, and there's a lot of critique about it, a lot of sadness, a lot of bemoaning the current context. And what I'd really love to see is religious institutions and educational institutions kind of claim their space as, educators, as promoters of what does it mean to live an ethical online, and how do you do that in online spaces? Who's having those conversations with our young people? I know in in, you know, k through 12, they're learning about how to use an iPad, which is valuable. But I feel like those educational institutions as well as churches, other religious communities really are largely not having the conversations about what does it mean to be a good person online? What does it mean to be a kind person online?

Ryan Dunn [00:11:59]:
What

Deanna Thompason [00:11:59]:
does it mean to have community online? Where do you find those good communities? What are some of your challenges of living, with integrity in your online spaces? These seem to be core kind of questions. We as Christians wanna ask our ourselves, each other, our young people about what it means to live as a Christian in the world. And I from what I can tell, most churches are not having that conversation about all those questions regarding online lives and spaces.

Ryan Dunn [00:12:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. Really, the most of the conversations within faith faith institutions centers around, well, should we be using this for our own kind of advantage or outreach or growth? Right? But it sounds like you're advocating, yeah, that that almost we move into this space, as faith institutions for the sake of being advocates in that space or, I mean, even as far as being shepherds Dunn Yeah. Not in Absolutely. Maturing in faith, but also maturing in just our human human growth. Right?

Deanna Thompason [00:13:12]:
Well and the rules have not really been set yet. And why wouldn't we as religious leaders and educational leaders, why wouldn't we wanna be part of that conversation of what the parameters are, what what healthy engagement looks like. Yeah. So this is one of the things for me where that agency or the technological instrumentalist in me comes out and says, I do feel like the institutions I'm often a part of or talking to feel like they're kinda throwing up their hands. Like, it's a mess. And, so many negative influences on our young people. Well, that is not a helpful message to young people. I've been in so many spaces where people are like, you know, if I had to deal with half of what you have to deal with online, you know, I wouldn't have made it through.

Deanna Thompason [00:14:06]:
Well, that that is really not a helpful message. They know that it's a challenge to space. Yeah. And they know it's hard. And they actually young people think about this, and they're fairly savvy in thinking about this. I've had many students tell me, like, I've deleted my whole profile on this site because I wasn't it I really didn't like who I was when I was interacting in this way. Like, people are making these decisions on a daily basis. And if we as religious educators, religious leaders are not engaging these questions, we are becoming increasingly to the lives that they have.

Deanna Thompason [00:14:47]:
And I don't think we have to be the expert either. That's part of the beauty is we can say, we know something about community. We know something about what it means to, be an ethical person to follow Jesus. And what does that look like in this new space? And ask them Dunn and have those conversations. We don't have to know all the ins and outs of the latest, you know, discord that they're on or whatever platform they're using. I think that's sometimes also, intimidating for those of us who are not up on the latest. But Yeah. We know the big questions to ask.

Deanna Thompason [00:15:23]:
We know how to help, foster conversations like that, but we just often don't invite that this dimension of life to come into that conversation.

Ryan Dunn [00:15:37]:
Dunn of the questions that we keep running up against, in terms of practicing faith community in in a digital space is how do you how do you serve one another online? And you're really helping to put some vision into how we do that. It is through advocating for one another. But in your book, you also wrote extensively about how you experienced, people being both advocates for you and alongside you Dunn extending service to you just in the power of presence even in a digital space. And that came a lot of times through some kinda just compassionate words, some kind of pastoral care. So what you've lived that experience. Are you able to help paint a picture for other church leaders or ministerial leaders Dunn how they might overcome translating the challenges of pastoral care into a digital space?

Deanna Thompason [00:16:39]:
Yeah. I think it's a it's it's a big question, and it feels overwhelming a lot for people. And, you know, I I really feel like God has a sense of humor in the fact that I am talking now about the virtues of digital space when I, was very much a digital skeptic, before I got sick. And, and I was frankly shocked to feel like I was ministered to, through digital means. This was not something I ever expected was possible. I'm a daughter of a pastor. I believed, you know, we're incarnational people, the churches, the incarnation of the body of Christ. We are called to be in person present with people, during their struggles and challenges.

Deanna Thompason [00:17:28]:
And I was shocked to to come to the realization that when you're really undone by illness or by something else, one of the big insights I gained is that sometimes it's actually too much to have someone be physically with you. And that was something I did not know before I got sick. I would have said it is always better to be in person. And that's really I don't think that's really true. When people are their bodies are completely undone, when you're in when you're sharing a space with someone who really cares about you, often, they get really emotional because you're so not doing well, and it becomes emotionally overwhelming. And so one of the things that I have found is that, and this is something that a lot of people critique and bemoan about digital or virtual space is that we are somewhat removed from each other. Well, it's not in person interaction. Right? It's not.

Deanna Thompason [00:18:39]:
And there's some things that just can't happen. When I was really sick, some people would come and rub my feet. Like, that can't happen, you know, in this kind of a space. But actually, when you're really undone and vulnerable, having a little bit of a buffer, between your that you're not completely your body isn't completely, being dominating how people interact with you. I found that to be a really huge gift, that I could, in online spaces where, like a CaringBridge website that my brother set up for me, I found that, writing on that was the only time I felt like I sounded like myself. And when people would see me, they would see my very sick body. And often talking was hard because I'd be crying or I'd be on so many painkillers that I wasn't very articulate, which is not what I'm used to as a professional talker, professor. So having the opportunity to United, and post something Dunn people would respond to me like I was still myself, and that was such a gift too.

Deanna Thompason [00:20:04]:
So I think one of the things that I would say is, first of all, like, I know so many clergy and church staff, this is not what they signed up for. Mhmm. They did not sign up thinking that they would be they did they did not answer this call thinking they would be, leading online worship and doing online bible study and, you know, potentially ministry to people who are sick on Zoom, etcetera. Like, this is this has been a huge you know, I had never taught online before, the pandemic. And so I wrote this book about virtual connection, but I had never done, like, a key part of my own my own job, my own vocation online. So it's a huge shift. And now one of the things I see is that many churches who had online worship during the pandemic still have online worship because people are accessing it. And there's just a lot of sense of, like, you know, ugh, like, I wish we didn't have to do this.

Deanna Thompason [00:21:07]:
It takes a lot more staff. It takes a lot more energy. And now we've got all these people who are, like, aren't coming back to church. We think they should you know, we really want them online person church. And all of that is very understandable. It's a lot more work to do this. It's more work to do it well than just set up a camera, and broadcast it out. If you're doing different camera takes and you're, you know, all of that kind of stuff takes a lot of work.

Deanna Thompason [00:21:37]:
I think what we're in right now is a is a space where we know that digital connection, a, we can do it, and b, that sometimes it can be really helpful. So I think where we're at right now is really in that discernment phase of trying to figure out how do we best used use this tool to help us live out our mission. And for me, one of the key kind of understandings of our mission as the body of Christ is from first Corinthians 12 where it says the weakest members of the body deserve the most attention. And to me, having online worship is, attentive to those who are unable to get to church because of physical limitations. Those who are still so COVID anxious that they're they're not really spending a lot of time, especially in winter Dunn the deep of winter in big spaces. It's for people who are reaching close to the end of their life and are not able to easily get to church. And, certainly, there are also people for whom this is just easier. Yeah.

Deanna Thompason [00:22:58]:
And I know that there's been a lot of critique of that. It's making it, like, church light or it's just really lessening the commitment. And I'd love to see, church, maybe it's through a survey. Maybe it's through, like, one day after online worship, there's a coffee hour that's hosted by the pastor or a volunteer or someone on the council. And there's a conversation about people who are joining on online worship and saying, you know, you're you're part of the body of Christ too. You're part of our church as well. What more could we do, to engage all of you? What what would you like to see? How would you like to more participate more fully in the life of this particular community? And, you know, some people might say, I just wanna come to worship. Like, I don't really wanna do anything else.

Deanna Thompason [00:23:57]:
But we've always had Christians who do that. Like, that is not a new thing. That's one thing I'll also say people say, like, well, when we use online, like, this happens. It's like, actually, that's always happening. Always. You know? We're always that way. This is human behavior. So some people just want to watch church and then go about their daily business.

Deanna Thompason [00:24:17]:
Okay? That's just a different form of people coming to church and then leaving without talking to anyone. I mean, it's the same thing that people have always done. I imagine though that there would be people who would say, you know, I'd really love x, or y. I know our coffee hours when we were fully online in our church, we're actually better attended than the coffee hours we have in person. I don't know what what the numbers would be like now since we're back, you know, at at church, in person. But I think I think it's time to experiment, and I think it's time to keep asking people, people who haven't come back to church. Just like, I I can we ask them? Is there anything through digital technology that would be a way to connect with you? Like, kind of this invitational, thing rather and I get the grief about people who haven't come back. I get the grief that church isn't what it used to be.

Deanna Thompason [00:25:25]:
Yeah. I'm an go to church every week kinda person, and it's sad for me. I miss people who haven't come back. At the same time, we went through a massive global upheaval Dunn things may never go back to the way they were. So how do we continue to live out our mission as the body of Christ in this changed world? And I think our digital tools can potentially be really helpful to us.

Ryan Dunn [00:25:55]:
Yeah. You expressed that so well. And I wanna go back to this idea of paying attention to the the weakest members of of the congregation. Because so often in the church world, I've I've been there on the church staff where most of our attention is devoted to those who really kinda have the loudest voices, right, which aren't often those who represent in a sense the the weakest, whether that be from a physical standpoint or from in a different kind of way, a spiritual standpoint. And so maybe this this movement into the digital space is us being able to pay some attention to those who Dunn struggle with making the decision on whether they even wanna show up to church in any way, shape, or form whenever

Deanna Thompason [00:26:41]:
Right.

Ryan Dunn [00:26:41]:
The church body is gathering. And and, I mean, I don't wanna call those people weak, but in a sense, it's, you know, lacking that that felt conviction where they need to be there. Mhmm. Yeah. And so this is part of that missional call. I don't know. That was just the moment I had. We're talking about that.

Ryan Dunn [00:27:00]:
That is really kind of deep in terms of adding some some, credential to to doing ministry in in the digital space.

Deanna Thompason [00:27:12]:
Well and I would also say, this is something I talk about in the book as well is, you know, it is intimidating when, church staff feel like they don't have great skills for this kind of stuff. I mean, this is this is huge. Weren't trained on it Dunn then just have had to learn it on the go. So a lot of church staff now actually do have certain amount of skills in this area just by having to do this, being forced into it. Know, some may really have resisted, may really have not, and and I've talked to many clergy who've said, like, it felt soulless, you know, to kind of speak in an empty church Hell, yeah. To a to a video camera and, you know, read a prayer Ryan then turn it. Someone else would put it all together, you know, this whole and this is this is totally understandable. This is where, you know, as a Lutheran theologian, like the priesthood of all believers, that all of us are called with different gifts, there are lots of folks in, I would think most every congregation that have skills to run a Zoom, to, do other kinds of things.

Deanna Thompason [00:28:30]:
And so if pastors are like, you know, we're really focused on in person worship. We do this online presence. See if there's someone in your church who this is a way that they could, participate in the life of the church. They could lead lead a Zoom coffee Dunn. And they could start the Zoom, and there could be, you know, 2 or 3 questions. They could put people in breakout rooms. They could you know? And so that doesn't have to be church staff. Many of us do this for our day job.

Deanna Thompason [00:29:02]:
We set up Zooms. We put people in breakout rooms. We know how to do this this kind of work. And so I think that this is where we could tap, people in our congregations who just this is now, you know, part of their daily life is that they get on Zoom Dunn they they talk to people. They have meetings. They go to things online. And so, you Dunn, and and I've heard of places too that have said, well, we tried an online bible study post pandemic, and no one came. I think everyone's super tired of Zoom.

Deanna Thompason [00:29:37]:
I think yes. And, we just did an event last week, through the center that I run at St. Olaf. We had a 150 people sign up for the Zoom conversation. I think, you know, part of it's winter in Ministry. Right. That would motivate that. Less I'm

Ryan Dunn [00:29:53]:
missing people. Yeah.

Deanna Thompason [00:29:54]:
That's a later in Dunn, probably. But, I think, yeah, I think we it's in a time of experiment of how to use this as a tool, not the only tool, not the only way to communicate, but how can a church say, here's our mission, and how do we use digital tools to help us better live out that mission than we can without the tools?

Ryan Dunn [00:30:24]:
Oh, that's so important. Well, you've mentioned a couple times working with younger people. What are some strategies that you would suggest for engaging these younger generations? Oftentimes, they're they're digital natives. So how do we engage them in the life and ministry of the church online?

Deanna Thompason [00:30:40]:
Yeah. It's a great question. And there's there's lots of lots of different layers to this. I think one of the places I would start is having us think a little bit more about that term digital native. So I'm a native English speaker, and for all my years k through 12 and many semesters in college, I had English class. In other words, if you're a native speaker of a particular language, literally no one thinks that you're just gonna know what to do with that language. That you're just gonna know all the ways that there are right ways to use it, how to use it in all its forms. This is something as educators we take incredibly seriously is how to help people learn how to communicate effectively, well, in religious circles, with kindness and compassion.

Deanna Thompason [00:31:56]:
So I think sometimes when we say our young people are digital natives, then we kind of say, so then they just get it. They just know. Well, they might know well how to use an iPad, and they might know about Discord, and they might know about all these different online spaces and apps. But this part kind of blows my mind that as a as adults who care about education and formation, We haven't really picked up this mantle of saying, we are kinda responsible for helping guide our students in how to communicate in this space. And, again, this is where I think many of us say, well, I'm not on Discord. You know? I'm not on so I I have nothing really to say. Mhmm. But this is so I I really think that we are called to, in our formation work, in religious communities, in our education work is to kind of be unafraid of having these conversations with our young people, and they would be starting with asking questions with really young people.

Deanna Thompason [00:33:17]:
Like, what are your, like, what are your favorite games that you play online? How much do you use technology or go online or use the Internet, like, in in your school life, at home? What are you what does your family do online? How do you and and we just have a conversation and start to learn, how are our families thinking about this? We can talk to parents and say, how do you think about this with your kids? Do you have kind of, you know, boundaries on how much screen time? I mean, I, again, I I haven't heard at a lot of churches. We're having these conversations of parents. Like, how do you equip them? I remember learning just happenstance from someone in my congregation when my kids were getting cell phones that they had a covenant that they made with their kids, when they got cell phones. So the covenant said, we won't have our phones at our dinner table. The phone won't be out while I'm driving you to x, y, or z. We will be talking Dunn the you know, the phone will be outside your bedroom door by 9 PM at night. Like, just these things, these parameters. Dunn so I think we're really missing an opportunity and and kinda leaving in a lot of cases, our kids.

Deanna Thompason [00:34:48]:
Like, parents, many of them put kind of parameters this much screen time, block certain things. But I think we could even have more of these many discussions about when, you know, what is a example of a loving thing that happened in an online space Dunn what made it loving? You know about who Jesus was, like, do you see people acting like Jesus online? What does that look like? And with our teenagers, as I mentioned before, many of them think very deeply about these questions and navigate a lot of kinda heavy issues without a huge amount of a parental or other adult engagement in these things. So I had 1 student tell me a couple years ago about how to what extent her mother tracked her on her phone. And the way in which she would end up, like, putting the phone at a friend's house and then going and do something else Dunn, like, this elaborate, you know, and and it, you know, it was kind of funny in the classroom when she was talking about it, kind of laugh of recognition, I think, by or of other students. Oh. But there was also a kind of sadness of, like, I would love to be trusted, a little bit, you know, that I I don't feel trusted to make my own decisions. And, like, so these conversations, I think we could be having in religious spaces, online, what is it? What does trust look like in our digital age? How do you how do you know that the spaces you're in are trustworthy spaces where people are gonna, treat you the way you deserve to be treated, those kind of conversations. And then my pie in the sky hope would be, like, what if we could create a community covenant with, like, a church community Dunn this is how we all will commit to being online.

Deanna Thompason [00:37:07]:
That we, you know, we won't go off on someone in a comment and talk about, you know, like I mean, I just think that we also as, like, kids are watching us, Dunn, and, actually, a lot of young people express dismay at how to to what extent their parents are too attached to digital tools. And so I think sometimes we we kinda falsely look at the youth as like, oh my gosh. There's so many you know? They're digital natives. They're doing all these things that we don't know how to do. They're off the rails. Like, they're hopeless generation. I mean, it's like to me, it's like what I hear is kids saying, you know, I'm really trying to figure this out. Sometimes, I I wish my parents would put their devices down and talk to me more.

Deanna Thompason [00:38:02]:
I, wish that my friends and I talked more about, like, how to how we wanna be as a group of people who care about each other using these techno you know? So I hear all these desires to live lives of kindness and compassion and beauty, and they know that this is a part of that, but they don't know exactly how it should always be a part. And they're kinda left on their own. I I really how many of our religious communities are really having you know, encouraging that confirmation is a time where people talk about this, that Sunday school is a time where we talk about this, how many sermons are talking about this. So, yeah, this is as you can see, I'm I'm passionate about this. Yeah. Because when I talk to young people, I find an earnestness and a desire to figure it out how to be a good ethical human being and be engaged in all this online stuff that it seems more and more that they are kinda required to be engaged in.

Ryan Dunn [00:39:20]:
Well, that has given us a a sense of of purpose for going forward. I feel like we we have hit, like, the 3 point sermon here. We've talked about where we've been. We've given some validation to the mission at hand and and given a challenge for where we need to take it yet. So thank you so much for offering all that to us. This has been really, a really inspiring conversation.

Deanna Thompason [00:39:41]:
Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Ryan Dunn [00:39:43]:
Very cool. It was such an inspiration to talk with doctor Davana Thompson. If you thought this was a good episode, then you might wanna follow it up by checking out the episode from season 6 entitled creating a safe, sacred digital space for faith. It's a great conversation with reverend Brandon Robertson. And I think navigating the digital reformation, that episode with Ryan Panzer, is another great follow-up too. But maybe I was just triggered because there's a Lutheran connection there. Anyways, thanks for checking out this episode. Pastoring in the Digital Parish is a production of United Methodist Communications and is presented by Resource UMC, which is the hub for leaders across the United Methodist connection.

Ryan Dunn [00:40:28]:
We're gonna be back in, well, 1 week's time, sorry, diving into another deep dive in digital ministry. So my name is Ryan Dunn. Look forward to chatting at you then.