Digital Parish: How social media transformed a fading congregation

Ryan Dunn [00:00:01]:
This is pastoring in the digital parish, your resource and point of connection for building your digital ministry toolkit Dunn bringing your church congregation into the digital age. My name is Ryan Dunn, and we're kicking off season number 8. And in this episode, we have the privilege of sitting down with reverend Caleb Lines, a pastor who has led his congregation through a remarkable transformation. Caleb Caleb shares the challenges that his church faced from vandalism to financial instability to a shrinking congregation, and then how they overcame in these obstacles through innovative strategies, including a strong social media presence and creative repurposing of church facilities. So join us as we uncover the power of digital outreach, alternative income streams, and the unwavering commitment to community engagement. Let's go. Pastor Caleb, thank you so much for joining us on pastoring in the digital parish. How goes it with your soul today?

Caleb Lines [00:01:04]:
My soul's doing great. I'm in San Diego, and it is sunny and about 72 outside. So That always fills my soul with joy. You know? We got a rare rain this week, and so, people were going crazy because they couldn't see the sky, and so it is now sunny again. And, everything is going well. How about you? How are you today, Ryan?

Ryan Dunn [00:01:29]:
Oh, thanks for asking. You know, We are rainy today, but we've had snow. So, the rain is an improvement over the snow. People are able it back on the roads again here in Middle Tennessee. So, the sense that life is returning to normal after being topsy-turvy for about a week and a half due to weather is, is reassuring and good. You know? There's some goodness this into a a sense of rhythm and and predictability that every now and then we like to rebel against. But for the most part, online, life feels a little bit more under control when we're just into that rhythm and flow of life. And, yeah, having a sense of purpose to every day is is good as well.

Caleb Lines [00:02:16]:
So thank you. Yes.

Ryan Dunn [00:02:18]:
I love that. Thanks. Well, I am United to be having this conversation. And I guess maybe that has my soul soaring a little bit too. I talked a little bit about how, I hope to learn from your church experience and take that to to my own church. So, taking us back to the beginning of your story here, at least at University Christian church there in San Diego. Can you tell us just what the conditions were like when you moved into your pastoral a role there, what was it, about 7 or 8 years ago?

Caleb Lines [00:02:51]:
Yeah. About 8 years ago. So I started late in 2015, and the congregation had a really rich history of being active in the community of social justice. It was, just a really great church, but had kind of lost its way. And so it, like many churches, did some naval gazing and got it Wrapped up in, worship wars and what type of music they were going to use and all that kind of drama. And so that really hurt the church. And so mostly, it was people who were aged 80 and above. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but That isn't necessarily the conditions for a thriving congregation and growing congregation.

Caleb Lines [00:03:39]:
It was almost entirely United, And they had kind of forgotten who they were. And so most of my early time here at UCC, which is what we call ourselves, University Christian Church. We are also a part of the UCC, the United Church of Christ. That's convenience. Isn't that UCC UCC and also the disciples of Christ? So much of my early time Here at the church was focused on getting them to remember who they were Dunn looking out of the making sure that we weren't just thinking about our own internal stuff, but about how we were called to, build the reign of god on earth. And it's amazing that whenever you get people to focus on that, To focus on, like, what we're actually supposed to be doing, it it really leads to a renewed sense of vibrancy, I think, a lot of times. So in those early days, there wasn't really a social media presence. We did have a YouTube channel where, services were posted, but they filmed on a camcorder in those days.

Caleb Lines [00:04:50]:
It didn't have, like, a tape in it, but it was still a camcorder that they were filming the service on. It was it was digital, but, not

Ryan Dunn [00:05:00]:
a lot of time. Them.

Caleb Lines [00:05:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, they there there was a, SIM card or or a a memory card or something, but it was a camcorder. They had a Facebook page, but that was it, an event for worship. So there there wasn't much, Digital presence either. So that was obviously something that became a top priority. So over time, We slowly stabilized and became more active both in our community and online, which was the beginning of the path that led to church growth and transformation.

Ryan Dunn [00:05:38]:
Now you're the senior pastor there at the beginning. Were you driving this push into the kinda digital expansion or digital outreach, building your digital presence?

Caleb Lines [00:05:48]:
Yeah. So when I first started, they had really cleaned house, And I was pretty much the only staff member. We have a preschool so we had some preschool staff, but we had volunteers in the church office. We did have a very part time music person, but other than that, it was just me. And so when I first started, it was a a very skeleton crew. And, yeah, I was primarily responsible for everything, including the digital ministry because, because there just weren't staff, which there Dunn any staff, which I think is what a lot of churches find themselves Doing a lot of pastors find themselves trying to do it all. And, yeah, especially in those early days, convincing the congregation that it was important to both be out in the community and to be online was a conversation that we had quite a bit of in those early days. And, as time went on, people began to see that it as not only something that they should tolerate, but something that they ought to invest time, energy, money, staff resources in so that it was, something that could grow and develop and, really be used as a tool for outreach beyond just, the people who were already a part of the congregation.

Caleb Lines [00:07:11]:
And so that was transformative.

Ryan Dunn [00:07:14]:
You talked about how in those early days, the majority of your congregation may have been over the age of 80. And a lot of times now, these days when people are talking about starting in building a presence in a digital space, they the recommend that you go where your people already are. My guess is that at that point, like, when it comes to digital, your people may not have been in that space at all, period. So what was the process like in trying to, encourage your congregation to, be a little more digitally aware? Were you trying to lead them into that space? Or or or was it more online, will you just support that we're gonna do this, that we can grow in this space?

Caleb Lines [00:08:00]:
Yeah. So I I think we started in the spaces where people were, which In those days was primarily Facebook, because people were were aged, and a lot of them were still on Facebook. And so We started early in my tenure talking about social media. I remember one of my 1st Sundays was a social media Sunday where I encouraged them all to create accounts if they didn't have it, to to take a picture, of themselves in the church, like a selfie Sunday kind of thing. And it's been really Dunn every year to see those memories come up on social media because I took a picture at the very beginning of the service, and, I stood in front, and I have a yearly reminder of what my congregation used to look like. And there I've counted them, and there were, like, 50 people in the sanctuary. It was it was slim. There were not very many people there.

Caleb Lines [00:08:58]:
And so We started talking about how it was that we could, talk about church, how it was that we could show what the church was doing online. And so, yeah, in those early days, that was primarily through Facebook. But through talking about it a lot, people began to to see that it was it was something that really they they needed to to do and invest in. And I think that as people got trained to do that, people Started to want to share about the church online, and that was really something that was very transformative was to see people Pulling out their phones Dunn worship and turning on, you know, the video feature or taking pictures and posting those online themselves. And so a lot of times, by the time I lead the church on Sundays, people will have already posted pictures or posted the videos. They'll have checked in. They'll have said, hey. Look at all the cool stuff that we were doing today.

Caleb Lines [00:09:57]:
So going through Dunn training people to do that, to be okay with having their phones out in worship, to not see that as a detriment, but it's something that could be beneficial to worship. That was really transformative. Here's at events that the church was doing. So we're structured not through committees, but through a series of collaboratives. And we have 7 or 8 collaboratives, and they're designed in such a way that people are supposed to think about how they connect with god and one another enjoying one of those collaboratives. Online the environmental collaborative, for instance. If the environment is a way that you feel like you're connecting with god and one another, that's that's Dunn you can join or peace and justice or spirituality or a number of these. And All of these collaboratives have at least 1 event per month that's designed for for anybody.

Caleb Lines [00:10:41]:
So whenever there are Collaborative events, people take pictures themselves and share them online. And, it it creates not just the feeling, but the reality of a vibrant church that that has a lot going on. And whenever people are telling the story instead of primarily just, you know, the leadership telling the story or the official social media accounts telling the story. I think that goes a long way for authenticity. It goes a long way for for showing the vibrancy of the congregation, and it, it was a process to see people, get trained to do that. But as they got trained to do that, it it was very

Ryan Dunn [00:11:25]:
Dunn. And so in that paradigm where people are taking their own pictures, for the most part, they're just posting to their own social media accounts?

Caleb Lines [00:11:36]:
Yeah. Yeah. In fact, it was so we have, we have a photographer now. We've our staff has grown significantly as the congregation has grown significantly. And, we have a A photographer, for instance, who goes and takes pictures of every worship service, all special events. And so we have, you know, very professional cleaned up pictures that we share on our own social media accounts, and that's that's very valuable. In fact, I think that's one of the best tools for for outreach reach or worship the things that are going on. When when people see pictures that make them feel like they want to be there, I I think that that's that's powerful.

Caleb Lines [00:12:14]:
And so people share those, but, yeah, people also take their own take their own pictures, take their own, videos, and they they share those on on their own pages. Sometimes we'll, you know, share those on the official church social media accounts, but often not. Often, we would just let those live in their their own spaces, and we just ask them to tag us at on whatever platform they're using.

Ryan Dunn [00:12:38]:
Yeah. Okay. So fairly consistently then, you're communicating that, hey. As you are posting, put hashtag UCCUCC or whatever whatever he feared. Like, all

Caleb Lines [00:12:48]:
the all the UCCs. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I I think people are are pretty much trained to do it, and I think our culture has shifted a lot, in the from the time period that I started until now because this little thing called COVID happened. And no matter Who, was online before? Everybody was pretty much online during and after. And so people got real trained at, at using social media and, you know, tagging church.

Caleb Lines [00:13:17]:
And so I think that, obviously, the different social media forms we utilize now have different audiences, and we we have different demographic targets depending on the the social media platform that we're using. But, but but, yeah, we've we've got people who are who are doing their own things Dunn and posting about their own things. So, like, members of our media team are posting about how they're getting ready for the media. They're showing shots of the tech. You know, members of our worship team are are showing what they're doing. The choir is there, rehearsing. They're taking pictures and and show showing, what they're doing, and that creates a a sense of community. It creates a a a sense of, I think, wonder about what's happening.

Caleb Lines [00:14:02]:
And as people see that, Who are not connected with the church, but they see it every single week, it, I think, creates interest in in what's going on and a desire to be a part of something that that feels like a community, feels like there's life and renewal. People, I think, long to be a part of that. Identifying as Christian or or who have baggage with that. And, I think as you can show that there's a different type, Of Christianity other than the the type that a lot of people are familiar with. That's, that that that's something that resonates with people, and people are still open to that. You You know, we continue to see a a decline in religious affiliation, and it's not just our people anymore, Ryan, the the mainline protestants. It's Most western Christianity, other than the slight uptick we had last year in the mainline Protestant Christianity. You know, But I think there there are a lot of reasons for that, but one of the reasons is that the church has an authenticity problem that people have noticed That the church does not practice what it preaches.

Caleb Lines [00:15:13]:
Dunn, a lot of the folks who come to my congregation are folks who've been burned by the church, who have some religious trauma, who have spent decades out of the church and are not interested in doing business as usual. And so if you can show through the things that you're doing in the community through social media that that your church is doing something different, that is something that people get excited about.

Ryan Dunn [00:15:38]:
Has there been some feedback that you've gotten as you've grown in in this strategy where new folks who are coming to your church are saying, well, I'm here because, you showed this blank on Instagram or, because you spoke, about blank on on your YouTube channel.

Caleb Lines [00:16:03]:
Yes. So I've so first of all, I found that most everybody who comes to church these days has first already checked you out thoroughly online. You know? They've they've gone to your social media accounts. They've gone to your Online, they've listened to sermons. They've looked at the worship, and they've thought about what the service is going to be like before they come. So people are often not coming in blind. Almost everybody who walks in the doors says that they found us online in some format. But, yes, I think that, there have been a number of occasions where people have seen something specific online that that has brought them in.

Caleb Lines [00:16:43]:
And so One of the things that I always advocate is that churches really need to have a thought through social media strategy, that they need to know who they are as a church, and they need to display that online. And so one of the first things that our congregation did when I arrived was went through and reenvisioned mission, vision, and core values. And before I started, I kinda thought that was all a waste of time. I'm like, Dunn know, churches spend all this time creating this stuff that they never spend any time actually implementing. It makes no difference. But the difference was That we actually then let that guide who we were as a community. And so we developed core values, and those core values, were things that we then implemented in our lives, or, you know, personally and in our life as a church, And then we showed how it was we were implementing those online. So that helps to deal with the authenticity problem.

Caleb Lines [00:17:44]:
So we have 5 core values. So one is that we're progressive. So I would then say do a sermon series on progressive Christian topics. I would make memes about progressive Christian, theology. I'd invite speakers, and I would share the pics on social media. We're open and affirming. We're the 1st open and affirming disciples congregation in Southern California. That's an important part of who we are.

Caleb Lines [00:18:07]:
So, you know, we'd march in pride. We'd up rainbow doors. We'd make statements as a church and with other, you know, broader organizations, and we'd share those on social media. Climate is one of our social, our core values. So we started the Climate Hub. We have 5 environmental justice, Namda, whatever, and we share all that on on social media. Social justice is another one. So when we march, When we're involved in interfaith activities.

Caleb Lines [00:18:37]:
We had national march to the border. You talk about all those things. Another one is multiracial, multiethnic. So whenever I started, I I mentioned that we were mostly white, but we started bringing in staff members and artists, who were people of color. We diversified from the top down and through our diversity as a congregation so that we're not anymore an entirely white congregation. And so we share, cultural celebrations, from members of our congregation who who are of certain cultures. So for instance, we have a service where a Latinx community shares their celebrations with us. In a a week or two, we've got, Lunar New Year celebration Dunn, our Asian American folks are sharing with us.

Caleb Lines [00:19:25]:
And so whenever you do those things and you Share them online. I think it it displays that you're practicing what you preach, and that that is something that that brings people in. So, yeah, I I get a lot of people who say, wow. I really appreciate that you're not just saying that you wanna be a multiracial, multi ethnic Congregation, but you are taking stances that, are advocating for systemic social justice reform black and brown people in this ministry, and thank you for doing that. And so one of the times when that really, Really kind of resonated very loudly with me was it was in 2021, And we were still closed down for the pandemic, and our church was vandalized. We had a Black Lives Matter banner out, and we have the the rainbow doors god's loves or god's doors are open to all, you know, in front. So people pulled down the rainbow doors Dunn they vandalized the Black Lives Matter banner and all. And, and so we talked about that on social media.

Caleb Lines [00:20:30]:
We talked about it with the media and all that. And it was clear to me that There were people who were following us on social media that I didn't know about who immediately reached out before the media hit, who Who who saw our post on social media and said, we've been following you for years. I'm not a Christian. I I don't know about the whole god thing, But I love the way that your church practices what it preaches, and we're sorry that there was a vandalism. We're gonna give you x number of dollars. We're we wanna partner with you on y project, and and it was just something that was expansive. And it was clear that it was because we'd invested in our social media presence that people thought that that we were a church that was actually doing something significant in the world. So, yeah, it's it's something that we've seen the results of every single day.

Caleb Lines [00:21:21]:
Alright.

Ryan Dunn [00:21:21]:
You you brought up the dollars. And I I wanna get into that in just a second, but first, I'm gonna interrupt that with a prior question. Dunn just talking about this overall strategy that you've developed, where even now you have a media team for utilizing these different platforms. In the earlier days when, you know, it was more or less you as the the solo pastor, her, did you have a clear strategy for your social media presence, or were you just kind of like, hey. We're just gonna start with, like, posting 2 times a week and see what happens?

Caleb Lines [00:21:54]:
So yes and no, I think. I, I knew that social media was important, and I knew that I wanted to know more about how to better utilize it, and so I decided you to enroll in doctor of ministry program to study social media specifically. So I went into doctor of ministry program at Duke to study social media. And so I I thought about how it was that I could study new media, the relationality of people that's created on social media, strategies for growth. And I I wrote down all my thoughts in the thesis and turned it into a book, the great digital commission. And At first, as I was thinking through those, it was something like I'm just going to commit to daily posting. I'm gonna make sure that I'm I'm posting frequently. But then as I I grew and studied, I I realized that, okay, different platforms require different amounts of posting.

Caleb Lines [00:22:57]:
And I need to think through branding, and I need consistent messaging across all platforms, and I need to create content that is different for different platforms. And so it was a lot of growing as, as I learned about what was effective Dunn, thinking about who my audience was on each of the platforms. So I do advocate, of course, for not doing more than you actually have the capacity to do, and I think that's where some people get into trouble is trying to do all the things, and you really can't do urge staff a lot of capacity to do all the things. And so, You know, I think it's important to think about who it is that your audience is, as you mentioned earlier, the people you already have, who it is that your your target audiences, who it is you wanna reach, and then I think strategizing to use your time effectively. And so Our church grew to, just Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube because that hits all the demographics, without Doing a a lot of other kind of content creation. While I personally primarily use TikTok, But also Instagram and Facebook and have my own followings there, which also helps the church. But Mhmm. Yeah, it was a a lot of it was a lot of strategizing as time went on, and at at first, just realizing that, Okay.

Caleb Lines [00:24:25]:
We need to have a consistent presence. We need to be doing something that that shows who we are and what we're doing. And then I think another important thing that I realized as time went on is that audience changes. Quality content changes. Just because something was a quality piece of content 6 months ago doesn't mean it's going to be today. And so adapting thing to what is doing well on social media and and leveraging that. So, yeah, a bit of a learning curve as time went on.

Ryan Dunn [00:24:58]:
Yeah. Okay. But it's an evolving strategy. So you're paying attention not just to the forward thought of what you were going to post, but paying attention to what you had posted and how it's being reacted to and carried.

Caleb Lines [00:25:10]:
Right. And and consistent branding, across across that. And so I think that's another mistake that a lot of churches make, especially small churches that are starting out in the same kind of place that we did. And if there are people who are running social media, Who aren't very familiar with with social media or technology, a lot of times they'll say, well, let's give this to the 1 young person we Dunn, And let's let them do this. And a lot of times, those people may not have thought through very, very thoroughly what the branding of the church is, what the message of the church is, how it is that you're communicating, the things that you wanna communicate. And so I think it it is good to have a social media strategy. I think it's good to think about who it is that you are and who you're longing to be and how you're communicating that online Dunn doing that pretty consistently across platforms.

Ryan Dunn [00:26:03]:
Well, you vest you've invested, quite a bit into sharing ideas around some new paradigms, both in outreach, but also in space usage. So it seems like within your congregation, some of locusts of spiritual formation has moved from what we would consider, like, the Sunday schoolroom to other locations, a lot of that being in the digital space. So you've repurposed then some of your physical, church facilities. Can you walk us through some of the process involved in reimagining your church's facilities? And this is where we get to the money part. How has that led to a a little bit of a of a more comfortable bottom line?

Caleb Lines [00:26:51]:
Because, that's that's kinda what it what it comes down to at the end

Ryan Dunn [00:26:55]:
of the day. Right? Because probably we We started with this mindset of of scarcity where we were like, well, you know, we're we're in these shrinking denominations Dunn yeah. And that translates to the the sustainability. Dunn, really, that's the bottom line. It's not about the money. It's it's how have you leveraged your facility to help your ministries be sustainable.

Caleb Lines [00:27:17]:
Yeah. And so and I think you're right. The the interesting thing is whether you have a scarcity mindset or not. And so in 2018, I had been here about two and a half years, and we sat down and did a really hard look at our finances because the the church had been in internal turmoil, took a little while to stabilize that, and the church's Finances hadn't been real clean, and so it took a while to get those in order. And so once I I helped them to do that, we sat down and we looked at the financial structure Dunn we said, if we continue operating the way that we're operating, And we weren't living a real luxurious life here. We were we were basically still Operating on a skeleton crew and, doing, the the bare minimum that that we needed to do to continue to function as a church in terms of the way that we're pumping. If we continue operating like this, in 5 years, we are going to run out of money Dunn we're going to close. And That can feel terrifying, and I think a lot of churches find themselves in a similar situation and feel terrified.

Ryan Dunn [00:28:34]:
But

Caleb Lines [00:28:34]:
that's not how that felt for us. For us, it felt liberating because it felt like, well, If we're gonna run out of money anyway, why not try? Why not try to do something different? We have to close a year early or something like that. We run out of money. That's already what's gonna happen. And so we are on a a plot of land in San Diego, which is worth a good amount of money because it's in Southern California. And, and it is also a piece of property with multiple buildings. And we didn't need multiple buildings for the kind of ministry we were doing. We were already using much of our building for other purposes.

Caleb Lines [00:29:22]:
We had a ton of recovery groups that met here. We had, some nonprofits that that met here. We were a hub for the community. We we had other churches using our space, but we weren't really leveraging the space to its full potential. And we hadn't really thought through who our community partners were that were meeting on campus. And so we started to dream a little bit about what might happen on our campus and what we what we needed to do. And we we kind of decided that we basically had 5 options of of what we could do next. We could continue doing ministry exactly the way that we were doing it, and we would drain down our endowment in the next 5 years, and then we would close Dunn we would give our building to the denomination or something like that, which what a lot of churches in Southern California have done.

Caleb Lines [00:30:19]:
They have kind of run down their endowments, and then they have given their building to the middle judicatory, whatever it is, and then the middle judicatory sells it for a bunch of money. And then that's it. End end of visible ministry. So we could do that. We could cut staff and go to, like, a part time pastor, but I was very clear that was not going to be me. Me I wasn't going to be working part time, and the church couldn't function because by that point, the church was already was growing. It was a growing church. We were doing good things.

Caleb Lines [00:30:54]:
It just, wasn't enough funding to take care of 60 years of deferred maintenance on aging buildings. And it wasn't enough to, hire the staff that we really wanted to to hire to continue to grow. So I said, you can cut the staff if you want, but you're gonna have to find A part time pastor, and I think that's gonna be the path to eventual death. And so that was option number 2. Option number free was we could just sell the property and move. You know, it was worth quite a bit of money. We could just sell it and move somewhere else. But we did some work with consultants.

Caleb Lines [00:31:33]:
We did some soul searching and decided that, actually, we were really tied into this community. This is the historic LGBT community in San Diego. As I said, we're the 1st ONA congregation Dunn Southern California for our denomination. It this church didn't fit anywhere else in San Diego. We were Mhmm. We were we have community partners. We're active in what we're doing in the community. And we decided that if we sold the property and moved, we would no longer be University Christian Church.

Caleb Lines [00:32:05]:
We would be another church somewhere else, and that wasn't how we saw our mission. We could, option number 4, better better utilize our existing facility for income generation. And so we already were getting quite a bit of money from, from others who were renting our facility, and so we could, think about how how we could better utilize that. But at the end of the day, that didn't address some of our biggest problems, including the fact that the building was falling apart. And it it it would supplement our income that we need to operate as a church, but it wouldn't get a fix, the 60 years of deferred maintenance. What were we gonna do? And so we ended up dreaming up an option 5 that we settled on, which was Selling a portion of our land to a housing developer. There's a severe housing crisis here in San Dunn. And doing a building project on the portion of land that we would, retain.

Caleb Lines [00:33:06]:
And so The the project would be complicated. We knew it was gonna be a multiyear endeavor. It was going to, require a lot of Dunn energy Dunn that it would need to be built in phases. However, as we dreamt this up, we began to realize, hey. We could better serve our community. We could live more fully into our core values, and we could create multiple income streams that help us think about how we could do ministry in a new century. And so We decided that we would lean into that, and we decided to create a housing project. And so that went through a number of different iterations before we landed on the one that worked, but we were willing to try all of those things.

Caleb Lines [00:33:56]:
We we originally tried to do affordable housing, and that just was something that didn't end up being possible. But, per but so we partnered with a market rate developer, and a percentage of those units are now, affordable housing. But We we we leaned into that. And in our redevelopment of the existing side of the property, we decided to think about how it was that we could more fully leverage alternative income streams. So we have a preschool on our campus. Preschool is something that is very needed. Here in San Diego, there's, also a severe childcare shortage. Tried to get my youngest daughter in childcare.

Caleb Lines [00:34:37]:
I didn't get all back for a year, from any of the places that I that I called with an opening. So there's a severe childcare shortage. Dunn so, we're We're doubling the size of our preschool, and that's a significant income stream that also provides for the community. We built brand new office the spaces for nonprofit partners. So we brought in additional nonprofit partners from the ones who were existing here, ones who are consistent with our core values, and built in brand new, grade a office space. So Climate Hub, 5 different environmental justice non profits. Again, compatible with one of our core values. The San Diego Gayman's Chorus, again, compatible with one of our core values.

Caleb Lines [00:35:21]:
And Amor ministry that has built the 2nd most homes in the world, 2nd only to Habitat for Humanity. They're on our campus as well. Again, consistent with our core values. So we give them, less than market rate rent so that more of their money can go into their mission, but still they are paying rent that is an alternative income stream for us. So the thought behind all of this was that you get, money from these, the preschool, money from the nonprofit partners. You get money from the sale of the property to the housing developer that you then invest Dunn you you get the proceeds from the investment, but don't touch the principle. And then you Have as a 4th stream congregational giving, which by that time can go out to ministry and mission because all the day today work of the church is supported by the alternative income streams. And study after study shows that what people are interested in giving to is tangible ministry, stuff that they can actually see the impact of.

Caleb Lines [00:36:27]:
And so if you can sustain staff and you can sustained building maintenance and electricity and all that through the the alternative income streams, then everything the congregation gives can can go Dunn. And that's something that people care about. And so that's, adapted, you know, some as as we've gone on. We've we've also purchased, income property across the street from from the church, and it it has been an ongoing process. And, we just completed phase Dunn, which is the the preschool and the nonprofit partner piece of that. That's all been built. We got our certificate of occupancy last week, which was an exciting thing. And, next is actually phase 3, Which is a housing project.

Caleb Lines [00:37:15]:
And then and then we're remodeling our sanctuary and all of that.

Ryan Dunn [00:37:19]:
Okay. Alright. Has your sanctuary stayed the, in the same location throughout all of this?

Caleb Lines [00:37:25]:
Yes. So Okay. You know, we explored a number of different options. And the one peace that we felt was important was keeping our worship space con consistent because we were also, growing and have online to be a growing, congregation both in numbers, in terms of, racial ethnic diversity, in terms of Intergenerationality. I mean, it's grown a lot younger than it used to be. Dunn so we didn't wanna inhibit that because that's, that's a goal too, right, to continue to grow as as a church. So we we want to ensure that our our sanctuary, stayed in the same place because we did explore options. There were developers who were willing to buy, say, the whole property and build out a a little sanctuary for us.

Caleb Lines [00:38:11]:
And that wasn't what we felt like we wanted to do. We wanted this to be the church's property that that We were investing in the community through. We didn't just want to be a part of what all was going on. We wanted to be the leaders in in what was happening. That was a a part of our strategy. And so, so the the sanctuary has stayed. It will be renovated, probably around this time next year. So that's the last piece that's going to to happen because the priorities were getting the funding streams in place.

Caleb Lines [00:38:46]:
And as I said, we did all this soul searching in 2018, and we decided that, you know, in 5 years, The congregation was gonna close, and we have passed that 5 year mark. That was 2023, and the congregation is in no danger of closing. It has it has grown tremendously. And, actually, aside from the digital pieces, seeing Things happen on a church campus. Mhmm. It's something that I think is exciting for people. When when they transformation happening in front of them, people get on board with that. And then if you share those pieces in digital spaces, Other people see that that's happening, and they get excited about it.

Caleb Lines [00:39:31]:
So, actually, all the construction, all the demo, all the the pieces out out of place have been good. It shows the progress. It shows that you can do ministry Dunn imperfection, and people have Really, actually, kinda liked it.

Ryan Dunn [00:39:49]:
Okay. Well, we're gonna bring this back in a sense to the the digital mindset.

Caleb Lines [00:39:56]:
Mhmm.

Ryan Dunn [00:39:57]:
Online looking at your space usage through the, idea of of where well, how some of your programs have become repurposed. So as you were inviting other groups to come in and use your space, did that come to the the detriment of, oh, like a Sunday school classroom? Was the space vacant? Or were you finding that you were moving some of your, I guess, traditional Christian formation classes and that kind of stuff to other areas?

Caleb Lines [00:40:28]:
Yeah. So Whenever we first started thinking about people being on our campus, we were primarily using unused space. And so So we had an education building that had a ton of classrooms, and we're in California. All the buildings are separate. You know, none of them are more connected. And so there was this building just kinda sitting there United. And so that made a lot of sense to invite people into that and and being vacant spaces. As this morphed and grew and we started tearing down whole sections of the campus, Well, all of a sudden, things started getting tighter and tighter.

Caleb Lines [00:41:09]:
And so for instance, we discovered that when we no longer had our social hall. Well, that meant that we couldn't really do church in quite the same way anymore. And so we had to do things like take the pews out of the sanctuary and make it a multifunction space, a multipurpose space. And we had to live in that space. We had to have church meals, in the sanctuary after church, so the church had to already be set up to to do church meals. And it actually, through not being able to do things the way that we had typically done them, not having access to all the space that we could ever dream of may just be much more creative and dynamic. Dunn that led to even greater creativity in worship. And and that was something that has been very life giving to.

Ryan Dunn [00:42:06]:
Well, what are you dreaming of doing next?

Caleb Lines [00:42:11]:
Yes. So, you know, I think the The dreaming is my favorite part of ministry. And, honestly, you know, a lot of clergy, I think, bemoan the state of the church And ultimately wish that they were doing ministry in a different period in time when they can focus on preaching and teaching and pastoral care and all of that. And I get it, But I don't think I would have been a good clergy person for that kind of church. I don't think that, I would have known own quite what to do with Dunn these days that is visioning, that is creating, and that's one of the things I find life giving about ministry. And so We are right now hoping to realize the dream of the of this, you know, multiphase process that we have seen the completion of part 1, but but are still looking for 2 more phases to complete. And we have been acquiring some property near our campus. And so one of the things I've been in conversation about out with our community partners is the hope to create a community center here in our neighborhood that the church takes the lead Dunn, that provides a meaningful gathering space for people outside of faith communities.

Caleb Lines [00:43:23]:
And so partnering with other groups, to provide services in the community is is something that I would really love to see and that there's been a little bit of momentum on. So so that's 1 piece. As I said, the the the dynamic creative worship has been another piece that has been, growing and evolving. And a lot of our congregation, as I mentioned, are folks who have not been in church for a real long time. And so one of our favorite, a series that we do every year is our theology of Broadway series, and this has been something that's been real approachable for people right. They may not know what their Christology is, but they know Hamilton. And so, we it's been a very approachable Dunn, you know, clearing the pews out and creating a theater Dunn the sanctuary has been something that's been, very life giving for the congregation. And Weaning further into creative worship, both in person and digitally is something that I think the congregation Dunn I are very excited about doing even more of, in the coming years.

Ryan Dunn [00:44:34]:
Alright. That's inspiring. And for people that wanna know more about your Broadway theology, where do they find information on that?

Caleb Lines [00:44:41]:
Yeah. So you can go to uchristianchurch.org, the letter uchristianchurch.org. You can check out University Christian Church on, multiple, social media platforms. Follow me on on TikTok, reverend doctor k with online or on Instagram or Facebook. And, follow our our YouTube channel if you wanna watch the whole services, and and, hopefully, maybe there's something creative that might inspire you in your worship, or or you might think, I'm never doing that, but it's permission giving at least that, there are churches out there that are are willing to do, all kinds of crazy things that that you might, find inspiring, or you might say, I'm gonna steer as far away from that as I

Ryan Dunn [00:45:26]:
I've found this inspiring in the aspirational sense of wanting to move in that direction. So thank you so much for sharing where you've been and where you're it Dunn. We appreciate it a ton.

Caleb Lines [00:45:37]:
Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Ryan. I appreciated being a part of

Ryan Dunn [00:45:40]:
the podcast. Alright. A great follow-up to this session would be our season 3 session with reverend Nicole Riley that's titled leading a church's vision in digital ministry. Another good episode related to this topic would be season six's thriving strategies for engaging online communities. I'm Ryan Dunn. I'd like to thank resourceumc.org, the online destination for leaders throughout the United Methodist Church. We make this podcast possible. And, of course, they host our website, which is pastoring in the digital parish.com where you can find more online resources for building your a ministry toolkit.

Ryan Dunn [00:46:18]:
I'll speak with you again in a new episode next week because we're into season 8. In the meantime,