Digital Parish: Pastoring in the digital age

Ryan Dunn [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Pastoring in the Digital Parish, where we explore the ever changing landscape of ministry in the digital age. This session is a special collaboration with the Holy Roast podcast featuring insightful conversations alongside the Holy Roast's Hosts, Rob Tucker and Rachel Wallace. The Holy Rose podcast equips and inspires local church leaders. And when Rob and Rachel reached Doubt asking if I'd be willing to come on for an interview, I asked if we could actually just open it up into a roundtable discussion since they are both church leaders trying to build community through digital connections as well. And that's what we're all about here on Pastoring in the Digital Parish. This Collaborative session then covers the importance of maintaining a strong online presence, redefining success metrics for online ministry, and as well as the theological considerations of communion in a scattered church community. We also got into Discussion on personal and professional boundaries in the digital world, feel like that is something we can't dive into enough. There is a lot of valuable insight for digital engagement Dunn pastoral care here.

Ryan Dunn [00:01:14]:
So check out the Holy Rose podcast, and stay tuned right here to Pastoring in the Digital Parish for our Collaborative episode with hosts, pastors, Rachel Wallace and Rob Tucker.

Rob Tucker [00:01:27]:
Well, thanks, Ryan, for for Having a conversation with us, and thanks for having us over there. This is all completely new to us, and so you will have to guide us, old wise one, of what this looks like.

Ryan Dunn [00:01:38]:
I think it's kinda new For all of us. Right? I mean, this is just like the age of ministry that we're in where, like, everything is kinda fresh. And that's exciting, a little bit scary, but also incredibly exciting.

Rob Tucker [00:01:49]:
Yeah. We're Dunn making it as we go. Right? I know it's a a good part of it. And and part of it, we're we're Rob and Rachel, and we're, Cohost of the Holy Rose podcast, which is a podcast sponsored by the Kentucky Annual Conference, and we are both members of the ministerial services operational team. This all sounds very Fancy, we are just really, at the end of the day, 2 local church pastors who are trying something new, which is what we are all doing as as Ryan has

Ryan Dunn [00:02:14]:
Mhmm.

Rob Tucker [00:02:14]:
Pointed out. So, Ryan Brian, who are you? Who are you?

Ryan Dunn [00:02:18]:
Yeah. I'll, I love the, the kind of consonants that we have going on here. So I am Ryan joining Rob and Rachel. Yeah. Yeah. It's Good.

Rob Tucker [00:02:26]:
We'll just start something with this. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:02:27]:
United Methodist Communications. My my role there is a minister of online engagement. So I, helped develop ways for the church to kinda move into the world through digital means and help people outside of the church, learn about and connect with people inside of the church. One of the ways that I do that is is helping resource other people to To be able to do that kind of work as well, especially since, you know, this big shift happened a few years ago. So I, I produced the Pastoring in the Digital Parish podcast as part of that effort and, do another podcast for United Methodist Communications and a lot of social media work and website development Dunn, and then just kind online stocking out and hanging out with other church leaders who are interested in doing some ministry in the digital space.

Rob Tucker [00:03:18]:
Yeah. That's awesome.

Rachel Wallace [00:03:19]:
Wow. That is awesome.

Rob Tucker [00:03:21]:
That's everything we should be doing, trying to doing, and, I'm glad this I think this is gonna be such A good conversation for for us and for our audience because we are all trying to do this. Right? And we're all kinda being almost Blind throughout it because we're all trying to do things, and we're all stalking each other, seeing what, you know, other churches are doing and other ministries are doing Within and outside the United Methodist Church. And I think that's it's such a fun place can that that we can be in, but also such a chaotic place, if we could be honest, right, To to figure out what that looks like. I I I think, part of that goes to this is we we weren't trained in this And seminary. I mean, even though we went to the the best, seminary in the world, Duke Ministry School.

Ryan Dunn [00:04:04]:
Right? Really? We oh, we have that run it all in common.

Rob Tucker [00:04:07]:
There you go. We do. Three r's and dookies.

Rachel Wallace [00:04:11]:
Yeah. You're not gonna call me a dookie. I mean, I went to Duke Divinity School. I'm very proud of that, But I'm not a Blue Devil fan.

Rob Tucker [00:04:18]:
You gotta let it go. Okay. But but part of this is this was not a class we took at Duke. Right? And and I I think for majority of seminaries, this is not a class that they would take, but this is where we are. So where are we, Ryan? When we start to think about that, things we did not learn in seminary, which I think we could all create Books and books and books about that. What do you feel online, hey. Here are the things that we wish we would've learned, but we need to learn now in order for us to be So as church leaders, whether we are pastors or nonprofit leaders or we just volunteer at our local church in the tech booth. Right? Yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:04:52]:
What the what would you say?

Ryan Dunn [00:04:55]:
Yeah. Well, part of it is just kind of trying to vision cast for the future in a sense. Right? And it can be a little bit gray, But I think with practical experience through the last few years, we can get a sense of Dunn where things are heading and, like, what skills we found useful. And I and I would, hopefully invite you to add some some ideas from your own experience within the local parish. But, You know, for me, for sure, it would have been helpful and has been helpful to learn about some of the, like, for lack of a better way of putting it, marketing practices in digital space. And here, I'm not using marketing in terms of, like, this is how we're gonna get our brand out there and, you know, score some sales leads and, you know, convert People to convert in a business sense to to customers, but United, like, I I think of marketing in terms of opening up a relationship, And marketing is the way in which we allow ourselves to be knowable to people. So

Rob Tucker [00:05:56]:
Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:05:56]:
How do we, as an institution, as faith communities, as these branded entities move into a digital space, and let ourselves Be known by our constituents and those who are potential constituents, so to speak. And so that comes down to online, hey. Within the seminary, we probably wanna look at aspects of, How we create content online, and what are words like SEO mean, Dunn, what does it mean to To cultivate a presence in digital space Dunn what is your digital footprint, and how do we responsibly put that together as Pastoral leaders and representations of our in fleshed ministries Dunn, boy, there there's so much there.

Rob Tucker [00:06:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. I also think, man, I probably use Canva more than any other application at this point because I'm I'm a I have other pastors on staff there. I'm the only full time pastor on my staff. I have full time other staff, but but I've been blessed at at being a Millennial, that's a blessing and a curse. Right? So I can know how to use Canva to an extent. Right? But and and now it's just really funny. All of our, Churches and all our friends, all our graphics look kinda the same because you could say we're all using the same Canvas templates.

Rob Tucker [00:07:16]:
Sometimes

Ryan Dunn [00:07:18]:
I get yeah. I I'd try to hide, like, every template I use, but every now and then it comes out, and I'll see somebody else use it. And I'm like, oh, man. Yeah. I I

Rob Tucker [00:07:27]:
think I saw Yeah. Dunn I don't know if this was you, Ryan, but I saw Communications put up a graphic right after I put up mine about Christmas Eve services, and it was the same Camographic. But I think there was some kind of not a sale, but something going on through you Dunn Comms. And I was like Yeah. Oh, I think they look at the walk in's Facebook. Fucking

Rachel Wallace [00:07:45]:
nothing. Yeah. Stay with me.

Rob Tucker [00:07:47]:
That's awesome. But, yeah, that would be but I think that'd be super helpful even just knowing the terminology for marketing. And not in the way that we're trying to sell you something, but in the way I love that. The way that we are trying to enter into relationship, we're trying to connect with people, and a lot of that is now in the digital sphere. And and don't shy away from it. Yeah. I almost need some permission giving

Rachel Wallace [00:08:07]:
Yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:08:08]:
From our seminaries and and other folks, the higher ups within our system.

Rachel Wallace [00:08:12]:
Well and if you remember a few years ago, like, when we were in lockdown and so many of us were worshiping online, it forced us to to really confront all of this. And then when we started going Kind of opening back up Dunn people are like, get back to church. It has to be in person. And and many of us saw, like, only 50% of our people come back in person, and the rest Or online maybe, or you don't quite know where they are. And so it forced us to say, how can we, you know, genuinely To cultivate community using online space or hybrid, of connecting people. And I remember specifically different annual conferences came down on What to do about communion. And that to me presented this just online huge sort of, like, theological none of us were, like, Taking the time, I thought, to think about it theologically of what are we actually celebrating in this moment of celebration and communion That sorta goes beyond all time and space to connect people together. And, you know, a lot of

Rob Tucker [00:09:08]:
us Did you do it, Rachel? Did you do it on my community?

Rachel Wallace [00:09:10]:
Kinda shut it Dunn, and they're like, no. Don't do Don't do it. Well, I mean, listen. I stream, and so I don't know what people do at home. Uh-huh. Right?

Rob Tucker [00:09:19]:
Yeah. Uh-oh. No. I'm not telling the bishop. But I did it. I did it. And I did it. And and I remember thinking, I'm gonna put this out Ryan.

Rob Tucker [00:09:26]:
And if I if they come get me, come get me for my grace. Come get me.

Rachel Wallace [00:09:30]:
Because my people are home Dunn they're scared. I specifically remember a Maundy Thursday Service I did on Dunn. And that was really the only Zoom service I'd done like that, where everybody could see each other and you all popped up. And I had, sent them this, like, recipe to bake bread, and so you could bake your own bread at home Dunn then bring it to the love feast. I called it the The I did the love feast. But at the same time okay. But at the same time, like, my folks, like, we were they were leading. They were doing communion.

Rob Tucker [00:10:00]:
You know

Rachel Wallace [00:10:00]:
what I mean? Like, Of that sort of in that moment, of what that meant for them. But okay. So our annual conference is very strict of, like, No. We're not doing online communion in 2020. And then since then, we just kinda haven't talked about it again. It's just kinda there. Yeah. You know?

Rob Tucker [00:10:19]:
How how do you feel like those conversations went? We we just have Dunn in in Dunn little frame of reference here within our conference. How how is that handled Outside and perhaps how do you feel like it's being handled Dunn? Because we are now a few years away from that. But the the same conversation Should be happening or we just moved on or we don't talk about it. You know, what what do you feel like that that looks like now in this landscape?

Ryan Dunn [00:10:42]:
It's kinda startling how quickly That conversation has died Dunn. And I think that part of that is because as you alluded to, most of our in person Congregants have not come back on a consistent basis. Like, they're still there, but they're the likelihood that they're attending worship every week has Has dwindled. And that started before pandemic, but certainly, you know, since pandemic. And so I think that has really invited the church into a space where we do think theologically about What is happening at communion Dunn what it you know, how do we extend that then into this new reality where It's likely that our people are far more scattered than than they were before. And so how do we, you know, practice this centering practice where I mean, in In essence, it is the, the focal point of our of our gathering as a faith community or church, to this new reality where our people are just Dunn all over the place. Maybe even in in other states at the point that we're at now. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:11:44]:
Yeah. And so, Like, there is another invitation for us when we think about seminary education. You know, how do we bring these theological ideas out into a digital age It's where the ways in which we, have started to relate to one another have so drastically changed.

Rob Tucker [00:12:01]:
Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:12:01]:
We're in an age now where It's hard to imagine for a lot of us. I'm online lower Dunn gen x. You you both are millennials, self Proclaim loyalty also.

Rob Tucker [00:12:11]:
Proclaim proud.

Ryan Dunn [00:12:12]:
It's hard for us to imagine that, we would be able to have a full deep relationship with Somebody without, you know, getting into their space in in the digital way. Sure. You know, seeing their pictures of family vacations and, the ways that they Dunn share themselves online. So,

Rob Tucker [00:12:32]:
I

Ryan Dunn [00:12:32]:
mean, this is part of how we relationship form and how we tend to Make meaning across relationships in the age that we're at now.

Rob Tucker [00:12:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's so

Rachel Wallace [00:12:42]:
I mean, just thinking about it from a pastoral perspective of I say all the time, like, I I think I'm a bad millennial because I don't really know a lot of techy stuff, and I really don't love social media. And if it wasn't for ministry, I probably wouldn't be on Facebook. But I am because 90% of the pastoral care needs that I discover are through Facebook.

Rob Tucker [00:13:01]:
Like, Well, that's a a good or a bad thing, but it's just a thing.

Rachel Wallace [00:13:05]:
Right? It's just a true thing that, like, to know our people and to be known, it's like Yeah. You're it's on. You know? And I even had somebody, you know, starting out in a new appointment, and and I didn't post very much. I'm not a big poster. I'm more of a lurker. I don't post very church. Especially with my kids, I don't I don't tend to post a lot of information or pictures of my kids. But they were trying to get to know me, this new church, and they weren't seeing anything.

Rachel Wallace [00:13:29]:
And they were like, you know, it might help. Like, a a trusted layperson was like, it might help if you post a little more. And I was like, oh, I'd never really thought about it from your perspective. But from my perspective, you're right. That is how we are getting to know one another Yeah. In this age. It's Through our digital footprint, you know, our social media pages. And I still haven't decided if that's a good thing or not.

Rob Tucker [00:13:50]:
Yeah. Well,

Ryan Dunn [00:13:51]:
Once upon a time, there was a a movement to Dunn push pastors out of the church office, so to speak. So I heard time and time again when I was in parish ministry of, you know, find yourself, kind of like a an alternative working space, a coffee shop, a local diner, or something like that. And the whole purpose, We're all we're all sipping our coffee. We've carried this practice forward. Mhmm. The the thought behind that was, well, this is a way to kind of Age in the community to engage in some social listening in a way. You can hear what people are talking about and what their concerns are. It opens you up for just these, kind of haphazard or unplanned meetings with people.

Ryan Dunn [00:14:30]:
And in this day and age, really, social media can provide that same kind of role, because because this is where these conversations are happening. And, yeah. It's it's a

Rob Tucker [00:14:41]:
spot where we need to to

Ryan Dunn [00:14:42]:
kinda have these Yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:14:43]:
You don't even need to leave your church office Or or your home office. Right? I mean, you can go right there to start engaging and and posting things that really connect with people. Yeah. I think there's a lot to learn there.

Ryan Dunn [00:14:55]:
Or you can double dip and go to the coffee shop and be on social media.

Rob Tucker [00:14:59]:
There you go.

Rachel Wallace [00:15:00]:
That is true. That's why

Ryan Dunn [00:15:02]:
I'm asking. Drinking, and people are all the more into it. Yep.

Rob Tucker [00:15:05]:
Yeah. That's true. They better put that on my job description. You know what I'm saying? Pastor goes and plays on Facebook in the Heiney Brothers coffee shop.

Rachel Wallace [00:15:15]:
Yeah. That's true.

Ryan Dunn [00:15:16]:
Every Wednesday morning from 9 till noon.

Rachel Wallace [00:15:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. My office hours are posted at Heine Brothers. I would love for that to be

Rob Tucker [00:15:23]:
Heine Brothers is a local coffee shop here in Louisville, Ryan. I know you're not No. I gotcha. Local to us. It's very

Ryan Dunn [00:15:28]:
good though.

Rachel Wallace [00:15:28]:
We're drinking.

Rob Tucker [00:15:28]:
That's what we're drinking now. For sponsorships thinking speaking of. Yeah. That was the plot.

Rachel Wallace [00:15:33]:
Anybody else. Wink. Here we are. We we are in your spaces a whole lot.

Rob Tucker [00:15:38]:
Yeah. So this this role though of pastor from when we all graduated seminary to where it is now And things we wish we would have learned, could have learned, but I I don't think they're prepared to teach us this where we are at this point. It would have been For us, you know, decades ago, right, that that we all graduated. So it'd be different. But I wonder, is that role pastor just continuing to evolve? Right? From what a pastor looked like before was, hey. Just just get out of your office. Go to that 3rd space. Connect with those people.

Rob Tucker [00:16:09]:
Still a lot of churches were Not very happy with that. Right? When you said, hey. The world is my parish. Keep I keep going back to the John Wesley quote. They're like, well, you weren't there when I came to the church office unannounced, And I'm unhappy with that. I had those real SPRC conversations in the beginning of my ministry, and I thought, well, you're not hopefully, you're not paying me to to sit here and just Just to sit. Right? Available. Yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:16:30]:
Yeah. Give me a call. Send me a message. You know? Like, I'm just out and about because that's where the people are. But that can be hard for a church to understand as a as a pastor. That can be hard for even now that I supervise other staff that sometimes I have to say the younger folks that are on my staff, yeah, that's part of your job. Go ahead. And that there's some trust there that I have to give them to be like, you're not just Doing whatever you want to do and basically doing yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:16:56]:
Yeah. Dunn work. Right. But how do we define that work? That's a I love that. How do we define that work, Ryan, then? So the role of the pastor, what it looks like, what does that work entail now in this digital first Age. Right? Yeah. How would you Yeah. What what do you think?

Ryan Dunn [00:17:14]:
That's a really challenging question because we are in this period where we're kinda redefining the metrics of success within the church world. You know, we we've read all the stories recently or even from several years ago about pastoral burnout. And I think a large part of that burnout came because we're we're holding to, Like, statistical standards that are aren't gonna be met anymore. And, really, what I'm talking about is that, you know, a lot of times we'll tie a a pastoral success to, Like how many people we have in worship on a Sunday morning or whatever else event attendance that we're looking for, throughout the week. So, what we've seen is that well, now we need to redefine, you know, what it means for us to connect as a as a church community because, Those numbers of worship are are kind of I mean, I don't know what if I wanna say that they're an outdated standard, but, it's a standard that's not gonna make most of us feel good because we can compare it to what it was back in 19 nineties, and it just it feels awful. Yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:18:18]:
Yeah. You can't really compare the what is the the 3 b's. Right? The buildings, the budget, and the buts. Right? I mean, is that the the both those metrics are that we have to turn in every year? Right?

Rachel Wallace [00:18:29]:
When you say compare back to the nineties, you could compare it back to 2 years ago before the pandemic. Or, you know, I've started at my church in 2019, and the worship then compared to what it Now in 2023 is dramatically different. You know? Mhmm. And and so that's that's something I think it was last This year was the 1st year on our end end of year reports, our statistical reports. They put something about online worship attendance. Yeah. But then you have to define what that means.

Rob Tucker [00:18:54]:
You have to guess. Is it 1.5 times? Right?

Rachel Wallace [00:18:57]:
Because if it's just streamed on Facebook, unless people tell us that they're there and say hello, I have no idea if they've watched or not. Yeah. Right?

Ryan Dunn [00:19:04]:
Yeah. And it's that 5 sets of eyes that, where a family's gotten together, or is it 1 set of eyes?

Rachel Wallace [00:19:09]:
Right. Or is it

Ryan Dunn [00:19:10]:
actually, you know, doing the dishes Just while this thing plays in

Rob Tucker [00:19:13]:
the background.

Rachel Wallace [00:19:13]:
It Dunn view, or is it Dunn 3 second view? You know, like, what you know, you see people have hundreds of views of their worship videos online, and you're like, yeah. But How many people is that really? And you can spend so much time there. And then the the cynic in me is like, oh, that doesn't matter. I don't wanna spend my time Doing that, and yet yeah. It's it's what what does this look like when we think about the measure of success? That's where we were. Yeah. What are those how we define that.

Rob Tucker [00:19:39]:
With those metrics. Yes. Yeah. As as someone in the digital world, Ryan, how how what would you suggest We really should be looking at when it comes to metrics because we can we can guess all day long, but what are some maybe some parameters that we could set together, as a church to look at, not even the conference. Let's just say our local church where we're serving. Mhmm. Hey. How would we say this is what's going well? And and because we're all Experimenting at this point still Mhmm.

Rob Tucker [00:20:06]:
Which is a good thing. Experimentation is a good thing. But how do we yeah. What what what mile marker should we be looking at As a congregation, as church leaders, when it comes to online ministry.

Ryan Dunn [00:20:18]:
Well, I'll offer what I can from From my experience, but I I have to note this in saying, like, I am not the the lead pastor of a church. So, you know, what I hope for is accomplished through my church's digital might be different than the lead pastor at my church Dunn and what she might say. So, actually, I'll online you both to Maybe a caveat on, like, what would you like to be measured on? But as I look at what I try to accomplish through our church's digital ministry, I wanna see consistent growth in in the number of people who were engaging, and I'll measure that just through social media metrics. So, like, The Facebook metric, engagements through the week. You know, if I'm able to kinda see con some consistent growth there, then I'm feeling like We're involving more people within the, within the activity of our church. A real win for me is when somebody who starts to engage on some of our social media stuff Participates in, one of our church events or get togethers Yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:21:27]:
Or, you

Ryan Dunn [00:21:27]:
know, our in the life of our community. So, you know, They're showing up to worship in some way, shape, or form, or participating in in some kind of adjunct online, bible study or something like that. Again, in some way, shape, or form, that might be in person or it might be, within the digital realm.

Rob Tucker [00:21:48]:
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I love the idea of trying to, You gotta start somewhere as a part of that conversation, and and also part of the is growth. It it doesn't mean necessarily that I'm more or so, and my TikTok video is Gonna have 15,000 views on it tomorrow. Right? But if we see some kind of engagement and start to see for me, I get really excited when new people start to engage with it. Right? So the followers, sure, that part of thing. But part of this, there's a response that you can invite to people in the online realm and say, Hey.

Rob Tucker [00:22:19]:
That really resonated with this aspect of my life. Thank you for saying that, or thank you for giving me permission to do that. Thanks for Giving up a prayer that's accessible, through our online ministry. And I so I like that. Dunn maybe For me, it's helpful to know, hey. Just look at is it growing to an extent? And growth can look like many different ways, but for me, that's at That engagement. That go in the extra mile. Hey.

Rob Tucker [00:22:42]:
I didn't just look at it, but I I'm now engaging with it, and now that's creating a community. Yeah.

Rachel Wallace [00:22:48]:
Yeah. I've told folks on our board that it's sort of like the front door of church now, of, like, the narthex of your church is now your online worship. I mean, that is the 1st place people will look if they wanna check out a new church. This might be an old statistic, but Rob and I both serve in Louisville. And it was my planting coach a few years ago that told me that Louisville is the most churched city per capita in the south. And so there are

Ryan Dunn [00:23:12]:
I mean,

Rachel Wallace [00:23:12]:
There are churches on every corner. There are so many. And it's we have so many, seminaries here. Right? It's the it it's where just North of here is where our annual conference office is. There's just it's our biggest city in Kentucky. Lots of churches. And and so you have a lot of people that shift around a lot too. And so I think a a lot of people explore and church shop online now.

Rachel Wallace [00:23:36]:
I hate that phrase, but it's just the reality. And so I've told my folks, you know, after the pandemic, after. In this in this stage, it's like streaming is gonna continue. You see, there's a movement of, like, my folks wanted to stop Streaming so that everybody would come back in person.

Rob Tucker [00:23:51]:
Mhmm. And

Rachel Wallace [00:23:52]:
it's online, I don't that's not gonna accomplish the goal that you want it to because now, Streaming is the narthex of church. You know, it's it's the front door. It's the first look. And if if I can see that number of people growing and so now inviting people To church, inviting people could simply mean sharing, you know, sharing it on social media, sharing the recording, or sharing the stream, or, Sending it to somebody, inviting them. We had somebody that started following online, didn't know for months she was watching online, and then, like, 6 months later, she commented. And within 2 weeks of the follow-up, she started coming in person. And it was like, okay. That's sort of like, it it happens.

Rachel Wallace [00:24:33]:
Maybe not as much as we'd hope, but I love that piece you said about engagement. Of, like, if that number of just People hearing the good news or engaging somehow in a way that bless them through a music, through a prayer, through a teaching piece. And if that comes to a next step of engagement in some way in person, that's awesome. Because when I'm not trying to plant an online church here. Right? Like, everything we do is It's gonna be hybrid. Right? Not everything. Worship is gonna be hybrid. But after that, it's online It's mostly in person.

Rachel Wallace [00:25:05]:
Yeah. Right? Why?

Rob Tucker [00:25:06]:
You know what? Maybe everything should be hybrid, though. Yeah. You know, that that's part of the when we're having conversations at a conference level here, We're talking about different educational opportunities we're offering as a conference and different, small groups. And and was, one of our conversations we're having in a meeting was, well, why wasn't that online streamed? Or why wasn't there Yeah. A digital file of that that Those of us who couldn't come on that Saturday because we were with our children at that point, you know, Dunn I really feel like we missed out. Why wasn't that recorded? And That is still an afterthought to many, not just conference, but local churches too to say, hey. How do we continue to engage into outreach, through these Methodist, and and it's such a gift for us. But I also go back kind of the role of the pastor As I'm sure many of us when we started out on this ministry gig, we didn't envision ourselves as, you know, this is the funny thing during the pandemic.

Rob Tucker [00:26:01]:
Pandemic. We're all televangelist now. You know? That that's, like, the mantra over and over again. But we really didn't envision ourselves as being recorded all the time of having a big digital Footprint. Do we have a a personal Facebook page and now a professional Facebook page? Do we you know, how much do I limit now Pictures of my kid on social media because there are people that I don't know in person. Do I really want, Coop's face out there? Do I really you know, that kind of stuff. It's Hard conversation for us because we're we're all learning of of those boundaries of what that looks like Dunn learning that we're not all Mega church pastors online either, but we're evolving into something, but we're not quite sure what that something is. That makes sense.

Rob Tucker [00:26:43]:
Yeah. How do we it so it's we're getting away from that traditional pastoral role to a different kind of role. And that is a digital first age role that is a, hey. We we need to engage with people online because it is the narthex, the front door. What would you say? How how do we get into that comfortably? Does that make sense? How do we how do we get There, what what suggestions would you have for us to say, hey. Where do we start even?

Ryan Dunn [00:27:14]:
As, In a pastoral role

Rob Tucker [00:27:16]:
or do you

Ryan Dunn [00:27:17]:
mean as a pastor? I think as

Rob Tucker [00:27:19]:
a pastor role because that that blending of my personal and my professional is blending there online. Right? We also had a visitor who came who had been worshiping with us online for about a year Dunn came in, and she knew everything about me.

Ryan Dunn [00:27:32]:
And I

Rob Tucker [00:27:33]:
had never seen this person before in my life. Yeah. And there was part of I was almost shocked, and I hope my face, hid that because she's like, oh, how's Cooper, and How's your wife, Molly? And how is it? I was like, I know zero things about you, but you know everything about my family life too. But because I've Yeah. Probably used it in Sermons. I've posted about it. You can see that my stuff isn't as private probably as it should be online. So there was almost a shock of, oh, gosh.

Rob Tucker [00:27:59]:
You know? It this is blending my my personal, my professional.

Ryan Dunn [00:28:04]:
Yeah. Well, I I think you hit it right there as to recognize first and foremost that everything is public. Right? And that people can't see it. I mean, anything that you share within that space is public.

Rob Tucker [00:28:14]:
So

Ryan Dunn [00:28:14]:
in a way, you can kind of cultivate a, for lack of a better word, a brand for yourself that is reflective of the ministry.

Rob Tucker [00:28:22]:
And Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:28:23]:
You know, I think that When the bishop plays hands on us in this United Methodist tradition, like, we begin this public facing ministry. Like, that's just part of of who we are as as people called to leadership within the United Methodist Church. And that means that there are just aspects of our life that we don't get to hide from, from the people who we work within our Community. Right? So and I guess we have to take that mentality into the social media space that We are pastoral presences in the, social media space that we are even called towards that in this day and age.

Rob Tucker [00:29:04]:
Like, it

Ryan Dunn [00:29:05]:
it's no longer, like, well, I get to go do my church thing, and then I can put my people on blast and complain about all the things that they do over on Twitter because they're never gonna see it. Nope. They are gonna see it. Everybody's gonna see it. That stuff is shared around. And especially noting that people who are maybe thinking about Paying a visit to your church, they're gonna look at that stuff before they, come. And

Rob Tucker [00:29:29]:
Dunn

Ryan Dunn [00:29:29]:
as a leader, like, yeah, they are gonna check you out. You you've already encountered that. Dunn. They are gonna check you out to to know. So that that's Dunn aspect. But also to To maybe do a little bit of what Rachel does, if you're not terribly comfortable in that kind of space, spend some time lurking.

Rob Tucker [00:29:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. So

Rachel Wallace [00:29:47]:
And and

Ryan Dunn [00:29:47]:
you can just post here and there. I don't think there's any pressure for any pastoral person to be like, well, you know, I've gotta hit, like, 20 Tweets or whatever they call them a week or, you know, 5 Facebook posts a week or, you know, make sure that I've got so and so many TikToks out there. You know, my TikTok channel has, like, 2 videos on it, and I use it just for, like, being in that space and hearing what people are talking about. Even my my Facebook. Personally, I I don't put a ton there, I've discovered. Like, I feel like I'm way more active Dunn, and I think it's just Because I'm, like, they're engaging and commenting on other people's stuff

Rob Tucker [00:30:24]:
Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:30:25]:
Without necessarily sharing a ton of my own personal life in the process, So I suppose. Yeah.

Rachel Wallace [00:30:30]:
Exactly. TikTok is the the one that's socially acceptable to just lurk. Like, you don't have to produce things or have content to, like, you know, see what's there. And I need to you know, I have I I would just get sucked into it so much too that, like, I lurk, and I'm I'm on Facebook a lot, but You might not know that. Right? Because Yeah. Like, maybe you should've said a better word than lurking.

Rob Tucker [00:30:50]:
You're a professional lurker now. Yeah. It's part

Rachel Wallace [00:30:52]:
of my job.

Rob Tucker [00:30:53]:
We don't

Ryan Dunn [00:30:53]:
understand what that

Rachel Wallace [00:30:54]:
I follow you. Just kidding. Yeah. But, you know, I've I do certain things like I you know, on Sabbath, on my Mondays, like, I don't I don't get on it at all in any social media. And then it's Off my phone altogether, just so that I'm not end endlessly scrolling. But it is a reminder that, like, I have meant to post a few things about church or, like, My kids at Christmas time, the you know, recently, and I've just, like, forgotten. So I know I need to engage more. So I'm getting there.

Rachel Wallace [00:31:19]:
I'm growing more comfortable.

Rob Tucker [00:31:21]:
I think it's, yeah, defining what that healthy boundary is for all of us and what that looks like. And I think probably the cop out is each person that would be different, Right. Than than the other of comfortability Dunn Yeah. What you want that I think we can shy away from that brand language, Tryna you know, part of that is online, what is my brand? What is my but but the that the reality is that that is a part of it. And I think that If we have that aspect, that means we're intentionally thinking through it. Right? Not just saying I'm I'm gonna go willy nilly about How I post, and I don't care who sees it, who doesn't. But I think we need to be careful and cautious of because we did take on that That ordination, we did take on a pastoral role. That doesn't mean everything that needs to be on there is well, how would we divide pastor? You know, But plenty of stuff we can have some haziness there, but but creating that boundary around of of this is the kind of person I want to be In the digital sphere, just as much as I am in the physical Dunn, in person, I guess, is it maybe the right way?

Ryan Dunn [00:32:22]:
For people looking at the video, like, you're getting a view into my home right now, and, hey, you can see some of the stuff that's posted up behind me. Like, I

Rob Tucker [00:32:29]:
put thought into what I put

Ryan Dunn [00:32:30]:
on the walls In in the same way, like, we just wanna put a little bit of thought into what we're putting on our well, they used to call it a Facebook wall. Right? Yeah. Into what we're putting in our our social Media feeds. I mean, it's the same kind of thing. So And

Rachel Wallace [00:32:43]:
I love the word

Ryan Dunn [00:32:44]:
allowing people that much knowability for us at that space.

Rob Tucker [00:32:48]:
Term.

Rachel Wallace [00:32:49]:
The intentionality too. And and I love, how you said, like, we're we're called Dunn bishop lays hands on us, and it's a public ministry. And and that's we wrestle with that Throughout the course of our ministry, it's it's hard at times. It's hard on our kids. It's hard on our families. And yet this is What we've been commissioned and ordained to do in that sense of, like, the world is your parish, and and this is what the world looks like now. It's digital. And so, you know, we can stick our head in the sand, which is what I usually wanna do Dunn just ignore it, or we can try to engage it with integrity and with some boundaries, intentionally Dunn just do the best that we can is kinda what I'm hearing too.

Rachel Wallace [00:33:29]:
Yeah. Okay. So, what are some examples of UMCs that you see doing social media well? Like, we we wrestle with this personally. We wrestle with it in our church and how to engage. So, who do you see, like, doing this well, this work well, and what do they have in common?

Ryan Dunn [00:33:49]:
Sure. Yeah. There are just some church' social media presence that, you know, when I'm looking to cultivate my own church's social media presence that I look

Rob Tucker [00:33:58]:
too. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:33:58]:
Kind of the the the peers in ministry. And they're all kinda platform specific. So there are some doing things well on this platform Dunn others doing things well on that platform, and it's not a complete list. But, on Facebook, I look at Glencliff United Methodist Church in Nashville, Tennessee. And, you know, one of the reasons why I look to them is because they're They're a similar sized church to to my church within Nashville as well. So, you know, online, well, they're they're just maybe just a little bit bigger, you know. So They have that that good presence, but they're just well cultivated. And it doesn't hurt that, Stephen Adaire, the person who I iSense primarily cultivates their Facebook feed as a fellow worker at United Methodist Communications.

Ryan Dunn [00:34:43]:
But

Rob Tucker [00:34:43]:
What a gift. So yeah. Dunn his story is

Ryan Dunn [00:34:47]:
really cool because he he actually started the United Methodist Facebook page for the denomination as a college student and then, because there just wasn't Dunn. And so

Rachel Wallace [00:34:58]:
do you know what year that was?

Ryan Dunn [00:34:59]:
Buying it from him and then hiring him on later on. Yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:35:01]:
I would

Rachel Wallace [00:35:02]:
be fascinated to know what year that was. Do you recall or no?

Ryan Dunn [00:35:05]:
I don't know. Okay.

Rachel Wallace [00:35:06]:
That'd be cool.

Ryan Dunn [00:35:07]:
It was long before I got here. It's probably before I was even on Facebook myself. Instagram, I look at, Las Vegas First United Methodist Church. They've just kinda caught my eye. I think they're LV first is their their tag, and they just have a good balance of event invitations and Slice of life kind of church so you can get a feel of who they are, you know, what kind of people are attending their events, and also they do some sermon clips. Also, there's a a church in Missouri. They're called The Well. I think they're The Well dot 636.

Ryan Dunn [00:35:43]:
And they do the the same kind of thing. And What I like about what they add into it though is that they have platform specific content. So it'll be online the pastor sitting down and Just explaining to people on Facebook some of the some of the or not Facebook, but Instagram in this case. You know, some of the things that they do and some of the things that are are important to their To their faith community. And and really, I think that's the common thread that's, in all of this is that, they're not these These churches aren't trying to be everything for everyone Mhmm. But they're using the space instead to clearly articulate, like, who they are and what their values are as a faith community, what's important to them. And so through that, they become really easily knowable for their accounts through their accounts. So, you You know, people who aren't gonna agree with some of the things that they're saying can kinda check out rather quickly, and and people who do agree are are feeling invited in.

Ryan Dunn [00:36:40]:
There There are a couple church that are doing TikTok pretty well too. I look at Birmingham First United Methodist Church out of Alabama. Mhmm. St. Luke's in Indianapolis It is another one that I think, is doing TikTok pretty well. But with TikTok, I have noticed it's really tough For an institutionally branded account to gain a lot of traction on TikTok, it's a lot easier for a pastor, the individual pastor to create their own account and And start sharing there Dunn get way more reach than, an institutionally branded account.

Rob Tucker [00:37:13]:
Yeah. I've noticed that, and I I play around. We have a mutual friend, Ryan, and and he's the one that that really that the one that connected us is part of that conversation I had with him because I I was like, man, I I post on my church's account and, you know, we'll get 300, 400, sometimes 700 views, but I post something silly on my own personal account, Thousands. Right? Yeah. Right. Weird how that ends. And the algorithm will just drive you insane some days because you're trying to figure it out, trying to experiment. It just doesn't make sense.

Rob Tucker [00:37:39]:
Right? So it's interesting that you bring that up. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:37:42]:
But yeah. It does if you think about the what they're going for. All these social platforms, like, their, their whole purpose is to keep you engaged on that platform. So Mhmm. You know, Facebook is kind of the most obvious in this Dunn that they have found a number of years ago Dunn they made it very public that people will stay on Facebook more when they're talking to other people. And they're gonna Become overwhelmed and leave the platform quickly when they're just seeing a bunch of posts from kind of faceless institutions. So they went through this Whole shift in the algorithm and everything from, Facebook page standpoint really dropped Dunn, and our person to person interactions were really Play it up. And I think TikTok Dunn that quite a bit now as well.

Rob Tucker [00:38:25]:
Yeah. And we'll link all that for for those listening. We'll link some of these accounts to to that to our page so that you can kinda peruse through those too, because I think that is just helpful to look at.

Rachel Wallace [00:38:35]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And sort of a A final question that we had, is for any low tech clergy like me out there, or also lay folks. I'm sitting here going, man, I hope no one goes and looks at my church's Facebook page because we haven't posted in ages other than the Sunday morning worship, but, I need to be beyond that. So what what are some first steps for us low tech clergy and lay leaders out there who are trying to engage and do the best they can and get, you know, warmed up to this? What are some of those first steps that you say that we can take to have that online ministry presence?

Ryan Dunn [00:39:13]:
Well, to think about how you find things online. So do for example, how does your family go about finding a restaurant to eat at These days, you know, more than likely, you're probably searching for a restaurant that's near you, and then you might look at some of the menu items and Some of the some of the customer reviews. Right? So just to Dunn be aware of that. So if somebody is Searching for a church in your area, are they able to know, like, what's on your menu? Meaning, like, where you are Dunn And when they might be able to to gather together with you, making that obvious. And you can do that through, your church website. You can do that through your church's Facebook page. I mean, any kind of outward facing entity like that that's, You know, again, visible to the public where they can see that kind of information. And also to make sure then that, Your church has an impression on Google, so cultivate that a little bit.

Ryan Dunn [00:40:17]:
Maybe even encourage some of your church members to Share reviews on Google about your church. That would go a long way. And space them out a little bit too. So I've heard that Google really Encourages or or rewards, a, ongoing repetition of Participation. So, you know, maybe invite, like, 1 or 2 people specifically a week to, like, say, hey. Hey. Will you go Leave us a Google review and Mhmm. Just share your testimony on why this church is a good fit for you.

Ryan Dunn [00:40:48]:
That'd be great. Yeah. So I guess thinking about it in that realm. So you don't even need to have, you know, a fully well built web page, to begin with. But just kind of the basic information, you know. Let people know how they can find you Dunn where to find you and when they can find you at these places.

Rob Tucker [00:41:07]:
Yeah. That's good. That's

Rachel Wallace [00:41:08]:
helpful. Thank you.

Rob Tucker [00:41:09]:
Yeah. Also, I think tying back to the conversation you had about context. Like, even just Saying who you are and what you're about, man, could be such a gift to the your community. Things with the churches that you named, Ryan, I'm familiar just because I've Scroll Biden before. They're very upfront. This is what we believe and the kind of people we are and, what we believe our God in the Bible, and it it's it's so There. You don't have to search for it. Right? Yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:41:35]:
Dunn and I think, man, that could be a a huge draw to somebody. Just I I think the United Methodist Theology is a gift to the world that many people don't know what we actually believe. They know perhaps what we're against. Right? But, Like, we that's and that has been such a disaster in the last couple of years because I think we are such a gift to the world, our theology A grace in the open table is such a the a gift to the world, but we just Yeah. Don't tell that story very well in the digital realm And what a gift it can be that we can do that even for low tech, high-tech people together to say, this is who we are. This is what we believe. This is kind of community. We're seeking to cultivate.

Rob Tucker [00:42:12]:
We want to do that with us. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. We're we're to end, and this is something we've stolen from other podcasts before. And we're very upfront when we steal things, and we steal things very proudly. And Part of this is called the the holy rose. So where we came up with this name from is asking our guests, as a part of our podcast, a series of questions, that you didn't receive ahead of time Dunn then just saying, hey, what comes off the top of your mind? Are you ready for it, Ryan?

Ryan Dunn [00:42:39]:
Alright. I don't know if this is my forte, but I'm ready. Let's roll.

Rob Tucker [00:42:43]:
Ready as you'll be. So what are you reading right now?

Ryan Dunn [00:42:47]:
I'm reading I I can't even tell you the name of it. It's a book about the history of the Anglo Saxons. In fact, it might just be called the ministry of the Anglo Saxons. Really, it's It's it's totally a dorky history read, but that's just where my mind is right now. So, that's where I've been escaping to. I do I'm one of those that reads multiple books at once though, so I do also have a book that I'm just about to the end of. It's even more frivolous. It's, called The Nightmare Ryan, And I've forgotten who that's by, but, it's, kind of fictional or Stephen King ish type Oh.

Ryan Dunn [00:43:21]:
Which you're doing.

Rachel Wallace [00:43:22]:
Yeah. Or. There you go.

Rob Tucker [00:43:23]:
What's keeping you alive right now?

Ryan Dunn [00:43:26]:
Oh, well, as we're recording this, my birthday is in 2 days.

Rob Tucker [00:43:31]:
And happy birthday.

Ryan Dunn [00:43:32]:
Yeah. Thanks. So I get to have, like, my biannual sushi dinner. The rest of the family, not a fan of sushi, So I gotta cash in on that birthday check. I'm looking forward to that. And also just online I I find a lot of joy in the Christmas season. So, You know, we are recording this prior to Christmas, so I'm

Rob Tucker [00:43:52]:
I'm fed off of that. Yeah.

Rachel Wallace [00:43:53]:
That's wonderful. For someone that has their birthday during the Christmas season, you don't often hear that, that you enjoy it. You get to to share your birthday with Jesus. That's great.

Rob Tucker [00:44:03]:
You still like it. Who's better than you? Sorry. Yeah. What are what are 4 things on your nightstand right now?

Ryan Dunn [00:44:13]:
Oh, that's I don't I don't actually officially have a night Stan. But wait. What a monster.

Rob Tucker [00:44:18]:
I'm just kidding. No judgment.

Ryan Dunn [00:44:20]:
But Yeah. Right. I mean, phone charger. I use a iPad for reading, so that's sitting there. I often read myself to sleep. Oh, and then well, my wife accuses me of being like the little girl in signs where I leave water cups everywhere. Nice. So, yeah, there's probably

Rob Tucker [00:44:39]:
a couple

Ryan Dunn [00:44:40]:
of water tops. That that would fill it out. Yeah. It's awesome. What's your glasses water. Sorry.

Rob Tucker [00:44:46]:
What's your we can count those as multiple ones. But what is your favorite way to unwind after a long day?

Ryan Dunn [00:44:52]:
Oh. Oh, boy, boy. Well, aft after a workday, I do like a fake commute since I work at home. So I'll go out and and walk the dogs for a little bit. And then actually, since I spend so much of my day in the digital world, I tend to go analog in the evening. So, that would be reading a book And maybe playing a game if the rest of the family is into it. If they've got stuff to do and I'm just kinda on my own, then I'll I'll listen to music. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn [00:45:23]:
I I like and I like the analog version of music. So oftentimes, that is coming on a on a record. Wow.

Rob Tucker [00:45:30]:
Yeah. I love it. I love it. So you're called up to bat. This ties in very well. You're called up to bat. What's your walk up song?

Ryan Dunn [00:45:39]:
This is the most challenging question I think I've ever been asked. Like, oh, man.

Rob Tucker [00:45:44]:
I have to plot, like, the

Ryan Dunn [00:45:45]:
whole essence in the Dunn song?

Rachel Wallace [00:45:46]:
Yes.

Rob Tucker [00:45:47]:
Yes. Yep.

Rachel Wallace [00:45:48]:
No pressure.

Ryan Dunn [00:45:50]:
Yeah. Although, you know, it's kinda kinda be aggressive because of the walk up music. I think I'm gonna go with, Evenflo by Pearl Jam. I just feel like that's reflective of, like, my generation. Online yeah. Dunn it comes on kinda strong, so I don't know. It just has that feeling of, like, motivating walk up music.

Rob Tucker [00:46:11]:
Yeah. I love it. One of the things that we've talked about every week is Dunn people share that as part of this interview is we do think that that pastor should have walk up songs to their sermons. Mhmm.

Ryan Dunn [00:46:21]:
Right? I mean, that would be so much fun.

Rob Tucker [00:46:23]:
Wouldn't it? I mean, I I think we should put that. So I think Evenflo could work into that. So that could be our gift for you. You can come, preach at one of our churches, and we'll play it for you.

Rachel Wallace [00:46:34]:
Preach anytime. Come on Dunn. Or else

Ryan Dunn [00:46:36]:
Well, so that being said, like, do you all have the walk up music For your sermons, have you been asked that question yet? What would you say?

Rob Tucker [00:46:44]:
We asked ourselves Oh. The 1st pilot episode. Saw

Ryan Dunn [00:46:46]:
the episode.

Rob Tucker [00:46:47]:
We did that. We so yours was

Rachel Wallace [00:46:51]:
Are you, like, Ready For It by Taylor Swift?

Rob Tucker [00:46:53]:
Yeah. Mhmm. Swiftie.

Rachel Wallace [00:46:54]:
He probably represents my generation.

Rob Tucker [00:46:56]:
And mine was, All I Do Is Win by DJ Khaled Because of Dunn basketball.

Rachel Wallace [00:47:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. Because of Duke basketball. Yeah. So but every time I've been on, like, an extended vacation, and then come back from leave. My worship team as I walk up to do our benediction at the end, we call it the BTR, online, be the Volusia now kinda, like, go and, you know, be the light in the world sort of thing. They often will play, when I come back from vacation, back in black As I walk up to to do the benediction. So but that's just my worship team for you.

Rachel Wallace [00:47:28]:
That's what

Rob Tucker [00:47:29]:
That's awesome.

Rachel Wallace [00:47:29]:
Their sense of humor. So

Rob Tucker [00:47:31]:
amazing.

Rachel Wallace [00:47:31]:
We don't do it for preaching as much as, a little ditty every time I walk up to give the benediction.

Rob Tucker [00:47:36]:
Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Well, thanks, Ryan, for being with us. This has been a a a fun conversation for us Dunn hopefully for you as well. I hope we continue this conversation. And and if you're watching this, hey. We are now know.

Rob Tucker [00:47:49]:
We need to grow that engagement, folks. And so please engage with us. Let us know what was the highlight of this conversation for you, anything you learned. Anything you learned about Us or yourself would be great. Yeah. Like, follow. Do all the things.

Ryan Dunn [00:48:02]:
Leave a Click. Leave a rating and review. That's There

Rachel Wallace [00:48:04]:
you go.

Ryan Dunn [00:48:05]:
Very important. Yeah.

Rob Tucker [00:48:06]:
I'll I'll get that Plug for

Ryan Dunn [00:48:07]:
you, it's kinda awkward to ask for your own reviews, but I'd say, you know, go ahead and hit that 5 star button.

Rob Tucker [00:48:12]:
There we go.

Rachel Wallace [00:48:12]:
Oh, thanks, Ryan.

Rob Tucker [00:48:14]:
Five star.

Ryan Dunn [00:48:15]:
Thanks, friends. That'll put a wrap on this session of pastoring in the digital parish. Some good follow-up episodes include our previous episode, how A digital media transformed a fading congregation with Caleb Online. I think it's relevant to a whole lot of our leaders out there. I also think that how it started versus how it's going, that episode with reverend Dunn Caldwell Gross, that would be valuable to you as well. Again, I'm Ryan Dunn. I'd like to thank resource unc.org, the online destination for leaders throughout the United Methodist Church. Make this podcast possible And, of course, host our website, resourceumc.org/digitalparish.

Ryan Dunn [00:48:59]:
If you wanna connect with in the digital parish community a little bit more. Check out our pastoring in the digital parish Facebook group, and you can also send me questions and ideas for future sessions at digital. Another session comes next week. So in the meantime,