Discover how churches can responsibly manage and transform their properties for community impact in our insightful conversation with Mark Elsdon on MyCom Episode 101.
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In this episode
In this episode of MyCom, we're talking with Mark Elsdon. Mark helps us dissect the evolving nature of church property stewardship and the pivotal role congregations can play in their communities. The episode sheds light on numerous innovative approaches for churches dealing with property and financial transitions, emphasizing mission-driven strategies that align with both historical teachings and contemporary needs.
Mark Elsdon is the director of Pres House at UW-Madison and oversaw it’s transformation into a 250 unit apartment complex. He is co-founder of Rooted Good. He is ordained in the PCUSA. And has written two books: “Gone for Good” and “We Aren’t Broke”.
In this episode:
(00:00) Reassessing faith communities amidst change and scarcity.
(05:53) Traditional giving model becoming unsustainable for churches.
(07:47) Accelerating church involvement.
(13:08) Focus church activities on mission, not business.
(16:07) Traditional Sunday church attendance is declining.
(18:59) Interview community to identify needs and solutions.
(22:07) Exploring community impressions, strengths, and opportunities.
(24:54) Church ownership shift: considerate property transition discussions.
(28:37) Church donated closed property for housing.
(33:42) Start with community listening before technical aspects.
(35:47) Sell smartly, consider future impact and legacy.
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Episode transcript
Ryan Dunn [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the MyCOM Church Marketing Podcast, your resource for outreach, communications, social media, and new technologies to bring your church and your congregation into the digital age. My name is Ryan Dunn, and I got to have a chat with Mark Elsden and explore innovative approaches for churches facing property and financial challenges. Mark is one of the founders of Rooted Good, which helps faith based organizations align money and mission. Mark is also an entrepreneur, a nonprofit executive. He spent a bunch of time in campus ministry and he's an author. Having put pen to paper to present, We aren't broke uncovering Hidden Resources for Mission and Ministry. And he edited the book, Gone For Good, Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition. Mark also shares his thoughts in this conversation on mission focused initiatives and how social enterprises can revitalize church communities.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:02]:
So join us for an engaging conversation that reimagines the future of church properties and community engagement. Reverend Mark Elsden. Thank you so much for joining us in the MICOM podcast. How goes it with your soul today?
Mark Elsdon [00:01:20]:
All right. It's been an interesting week, but it's good to be here talking with you.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:25]:
Yeah. To contextualize that a little bit, we're talking on the Friday after the election. So, yeah, just feeling the unease and tension around everybody's lives. I'm sure. Well, speaking of unease intention, I'm gonna kinda ambush you with a question to to let our listeners peek behind the curtain a little bit. I prepare a list of questions ahead of time just to have a platform to jump off of. And I figure as long as I'm preparing, I might as well give guests the chance to prepare as well. So normally, I send them along.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:57]:
So this is a question that's not coming from the list that I sent you, Mark. But I think it's in your wheelhouse anyway. We are in a time of tension nationally and obviously within the church, where, I've just had a number of conversations recently around scarcity and a lament that things just aren't like they used to be. So today, what's giving you hope for the future of the church?
Mark Elsdon [00:02:26]:
Yeah. And that's a good question. There is a lot of reflection on scarcity, I think, a lot of, you know, responding out of scarcity, responding out of fear. I think that we're in a really big shuffling moment. And so I feel broadly speaking hopeful about, the future of what it means to be gathered communities of faith and Jesus followers, in some ways, stripping away some of the kind of trappings perhaps that we've surrounded ourselves with over the last 100 years in American in the American church. And it's not easy. I mean, in no way is that an easy thing for us to deal with. But, there's some things that are, you know, maybe we should be putting away and putting to rest or to rethinking our relationship with property, our relationship with money, our relationship with structures, and all of that.
Mark Elsdon [00:03:20]:
And so, again, while not easy, to me, this in no way feels like the end. Mhmm. I often say, you know, while the church in many quarters is declining, God isn't. And, so let's follow god into what is the new the new future for what it means to be to be the church today.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:41]:
You mentioned some of the trappings that we've been holding on to for the past 100 years or so. What how would you characterize some of those trappings? So what are you thinking of in that?
Mark Elsdon [00:03:52]:
Well, I mean, I think, you know, in the mainline church, at least, right, we rebuilt some pretty monstrous, different other ways too. Right?
Ryan Dunn [00:04:05]:
Not an architectural commentary, but
Mark Elsdon [00:04:07]:
Yeah. Right. I mean, some pretty big, institutional, you know, entities. Right? With lots and lots of property and lots and lots of money and investments and struck and structures and layers. And, you know, and then a lot of that's unwinding, because it has to. And, again, I'm not to diminish the the real, like, struggle and pain that that can bring because it can. Yeah. But those things are not that's not Christian community.
Mark Elsdon [00:04:37]:
That's something else. I mean, that's stuff that we kinda built around Christian community. Right? And and we've done great stuff as a church over the last 100 years, but we also don't necessarily need it all the way we we thought we did. And so, you know, we're facing for sure a massive shift, and I call it a tsunami of change with regard to property at least, and church property, being sold or repurposed, re re reenvisioned, redeveloped. And, and I'm hopeful that that will lead to good things if we're if we're kind of intentional about it.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:13]:
Yeah. Well, I'm eager to shift into hope. I feel like this is a, an appropriate time for that. So, you know, we recognize that church economics are changing. Certainly churches are not able to count on, sources of revenue that they were able to count on in the past. So what are some of the ways that you have now encountered churches shifting their mindsets, innovating and well, transforming the resources that they have, whether that be property or buildings to generate a new source of revenue?
Mark Elsdon [00:05:53]:
Yeah. I mean, so as you just said, you know, the the model that we've lived with for for many decades in the American church, traditionally has been offerings, you know, offerings from the from the plate, tithes, or or offerings from online giving in more recent years and so on. But it's all still the same. It's people giving. That is still gonna be important, right, for church communities. But many simply don't have the numbers of people on the and the revenue possibilities for that to be sustainable. Especially at the very same moment that a lot of churches are facing higher costs than they've ever faced. And I'm not just talking about sort of inflationary costs, so those are real.
Mark Elsdon [00:06:34]:
But also, if churches do have a building, deferred maintenance costs and the cost of dealing with a building that's 50 years old, 75 years old, a 100 years old that suddenly now is costing 1,000,000 of dollars to deal with at the very moment that they have kind of the least amount of income coming in from from giving. And so something has to be done different. Right? And, and so churches are experimenting with lots of different new models. And the space that I work in is primarily focused on what we call social enterprise. So bringing together social missional oriented activity with enterprise revenue generating activity and putting those two things together. And that can lead to some really creative, new ways of being a commune a church community in a neighborhood, as well as new economic models.
Ryan Dunn [00:07:28]:
You work with Rooted Good. Well, you're co founder of Rooted Good, which helps lead churches through that process. Has there been, a favorite project of yours or maybe favorite isn't the right word, but one that kind of sticks out to you is, just being an innovative way where a church has engaged in that social enterprise.
Mark Elsdon [00:07:47]:
Yeah. I mean, there's a ton of them. And we've had, we had 26 churches do our pilot and we have, about a 125 churches currently enrolled, just in this current year that we're in. And so we're at about a 150 churches, doing the doing the accelerator course, and all kinds of ideas are coming out. I mean, co working spaces, childcare centers, housing projects for seniors, for affordable housing, workforce housing. One really cool project happened out of our accelerator in Gulf Shores, Alabama, a Presbyterian Church. They were actually facing pretty much imminent sort of closure or or, like, radical shifting, at least. They were they were 3 years away from from running out of might, basically, and their building was too expensive, and it was their building had become kind of an albatross rather than an asset.
Mark Elsdon [00:08:40]:
And, so they did the course, and then part of the course is looking around at the community, what is the needs of the community? And, they determined that, one of the things that was really missing in their community was, space for entrepreneurs to get started, sort of like new entrepreneur incubator space. And so they invested a relatively small amount of money in just 18 months, converted their entire education wing into a new business incubator. And they now have 9 entrepreneurs starting businesses out of their church. And they're generating a $100,000 a year in revenue for the church, and they become a hub of activity. Whereas before they were, you know, an hour on Sunday and a couple meetings during the week.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:27]:
Now Okay.
Mark Elsdon [00:09:28]:
Basically, 9 to 5 or more, people are in and out of the church. They're meeting each other. They're connected. One of their entrepreneurs got so excited about the church, they started cutting the grass for them. And, you know, I mean, it's a snowballed. And then now they're actually looking at potentially putting in a daycare center and, you know, it's just really transformed not only the economics of the church, but its whole presence in the community and basically turned a building that was a huge burden and weight into the very opposite, into an asset that's that's activated, that's busy, that's being used, and that's helping them with their financial situation rather than weighing them down.
Ryan Dunn [00:10:11]:
How does the church staff for that? Because traditionally, our church model of staffing is really based around, a Sunday morning event. So when they start thinking about, well, enlivening the church facilities throughout the entire week, what what changes in either mindset or practical staffing need to happen, for that to be resourced?
Mark Elsdon [00:10:36]:
Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. I don't know the exact specifics of how this particular church has has handled that. But in general, you're right. The model of staffing, the model of sort of how the church operates, the way its buildings are used will have to change as these other uses are introduced. But but we encourage churches to think of that as part of the whole process and part of the cost of doing business, you might say. Right? So as soon as you get into this work, you have different staffing costs or different, contract costs. Right? You might need to contract an accountant in a different way because now you have a whole different set of revenues coming in.
Mark Elsdon [00:11:16]:
You might might actually have to pay taxes on some of this activity. Yeah. So you have that aspect of it. But all that's okay. That's all just part of the business model. Right? And and so you just you just sort of take that out of some of the proceeds of the revenue. That's fine. That's all just part of what you're doing.
Mark Elsdon [00:11:33]:
Churches do need a partner though, that's for sure. Like, I mean, in many of these cases, it's not something they can do completely by themselves. This one, they mostly did by themselves, other than the 9 partners that are there are entrepreneurs that are coming in. But some larger projects like churches are not gonna build, you know, an affordable housing building by themselves, literally by themselves, or lease it out by themselves. That's not gonna happen. They need to find partners to to work with for that. So, yes, it does change the model, but it is that's what I mean. It's a fairly radical change in what it even means to be a church.
Mark Elsdon [00:12:07]:
Yeah. You know? And they still worship on Sunday.
Ryan Dunn [00:12:10]:
Right.
Mark Elsdon [00:12:10]:
But but that's a part of what they do. It's not the sort of it's not the only thing that they do essentially.
Ryan Dunn [00:12:18]:
Do you find that as you're starting to work with some of these congregations, that there is some fear that they're gonna lose their identity in the midst of this transformation or that it's gonna become all about business?
Mark Elsdon [00:12:30]:
Sure. And that's also possible. I mean, it's a risk. I think that's why we really focus on our good futures accelerator course on mission, like the whole way through. It's all about why are we doing this and and what is it for. Right? And so our course this is really, like, important. We we find that churches often jump straight to the how. Like, how do we get a real estate agent? How do we get a developer? How do we feel figure out these tax issues or these legal issues? And those are all important, but that's not the starting point, and it's not the, like, the important thing, really.
Mark Elsdon [00:13:08]:
The important question is why. Mhmm. And then to some extent, what to meet the why. So why are we doing this and what are we actually doing that is mission in the community? Because otherwise, yes, it will just become a business venture and churches are not gonna be very good at that relative to, you know, to if that's the if that's the answer, then maybe we should maybe we should actually just sell it and move on and, like, celebrate what we had and and put to bed where we are and then let somebody else take over the space. You know, that's maybe the answer there. But it but I but what we encourage churches to think about is how can this be a missional activity in the community? And it may look very different than what we thought of as missional previously. You know, engaging a whole ecosystem of entrepreneurs, for example, is very different than a Sunday morning worship service, but it still can be very much an outgrowth of our faith commitments and our love of neighbor and our love of Jesus. So it it's really about putting it in that frame and and making sure we kind of hang on to that throughout all of it.
Mark Elsdon [00:14:15]:
Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:14:16]:
Do you think, asking those kinds of questions guards against a mindset that this is just about the survival of the of the church?
Mark Elsdon [00:14:26]:
Yeah. I mean, we we don't need to I don't think I think in some ways, the the moment we're in allows us to step away from that question. I mean, like, we've been asking that question for a long time, and and the answer has been dissatisfying in many ways. We continue to decline. Like, so so it's like I really want a more radical shift than that. It's it's like let's talk much more about what it even means to be the church, not just how to survive as we were. Mhmm. Sometimes I talk about our moment as a kind of blockbuster video moment.
Mark Elsdon [00:15:02]:
So obviously right in the early 2000, Netflix came onto the scene. And I mean, I used to always my wife and I before we had kids, our Friday evening routine was to get some sort of takeout food and, you know, go physically to Blockbuster video and choose a movie on the shelf and take it home and then return it on Monday. Right? Like that kind of To your late fee. And like a DVD or a VHS even early. Right? If we can remember those days, but, Netflix came on and just changed that completely. Right. It came in the mail and then very quickly we wasn't even in the mail. It was, streaming and on our phone and everything else.
Mark Elsdon [00:15:39]:
But so the way people access movies changed just so much. I think we're in a similar situation in the church a little bit. Right? So people still want people still wanted movies. They just weren't gonna go to a blockbuster store to get them. I think today people still want, meaning. They still want encounters with the divine. They still want community that's that's got purpose to it. They still wanna be a part of something that changes and helps people.
Mark Elsdon [00:16:07]:
They still want that. But the honest truth is they're just not showing up for it on Sunday morning the way they were, followed by Sunday school classes. Like, that just is not the way people are accessing those things that they they're just not accessing God that way is maybe another way of putting it. Right? And so if we're gonna just keep doing that, it's like the Blockbuster video store telling the manager to just put better movies on the shelf or to make the sign better or bigger or to send a mailer out to the neighborhood to remind them that they're there and that the store is still there or to hire a better manager. Right? Like a hip manager with tight jeans and, you know, whatever, guitar and, like, you know, like, it's somehow that's gonna change it. It's that's not the problem. Like, that's not gonna really move the needle. I mean, it might slightly, but really it isn't.
Mark Elsdon [00:16:58]:
Right? What we're what we're dealing with is a much larger social shift than tweaking around the edges is gonna is gonna do. So
Ryan Dunn [00:17:10]:
I volunteer with a local church here in Nashville. That is in the. The point of, really change your, or desist kind of kind of space. So, and all the symptoms that you talked about earlier, 75 year old building that is in, you know, state of disrepair and, challenges in, in making ends meet, are existent there. As they start to look at how they might shift their mindset and usefulness to the community, are there a couple of guiding questions that they might want to begin with?
Mark Elsdon [00:17:56]:
Yeah. So our our process and and the way we think about this typically is, probably the the most important guiding questions are well, the most important guiding question really is is to listen to the neighborhood and to the community. And, and we've, I think we haven't done that super well a lot of times in churches. And I mean, really this and not just like sit around with ourselves and talk about what we think people in the community need or want. Because we're really good at that in the church about coming up with ideas of what people need or want, but we never actually asked them. Right? And so really trying to, like, spend some time, Like, in our course, we have an exercise that we do a lot of gamifying in our course to make things a little bit different and fun and changing the dynamic. So we have a little game that the the congregation's invited to do called I Spy. So using the I Spy with my little eye kind of exercise, and you go out in the neighborhood and you actually do that with a series of prompts and reflections and and sort of prayerful, you know, discernment.
Mark Elsdon [00:18:59]:
And then and then another set of processes that involve interviewing some people in the community to ask them about, you know, what do they think of the community's greatest gifts, and what are the greatest needs in the community, and what if a church could do something here, what could that be? What would really be transformative? And so ask the principal of the school or the alderperson or the mayor or the, shop owner on the corner nearby who sees everything happening all day every day, you know, that kind of thing. Like, just listening to what is going on, that's the most critical starting point. And then we often encourage churches to try to connect new ideas with who they are and who they were. So not pulling some idea off the shelf or even off a book, even my books. Like, don't just take an idea and apply it in your context. Like, really reflect on who are we as a congregation? What is our history, our legacy? What have we loved? You know, some great examples are churches that had, like, a food pantry for 50 years that was really beloved, and they're kind of reaching the point where the way that's operating isn't viable anymore. And they're exploring turning the food pantry into a grocery store coop, like a community owned grocery store that's more financially sustainable and actually going bigger with it, sort of scaling it up. But it's got a tie.
Mark Elsdon [00:20:25]:
Right? So you've got let's say that example. You've got a food desert. You've got a situation where a grocery store would be super beneficial in the community. You have this beloved food pantry ministry. Can you put all that together and create a more financially sustainable, ministry, essentially that meets needs and ties in with the communities, the the church's sort of legacy and passions. And you can't always do it. So there are times where where the answer is we're our our season's done. And, you know, our season's done, and we will decide to to to put it to bed, to close it.
Mark Elsdon [00:21:04]:
And then then it's a question of, what do we do with the property and the building and the land, and how do we faithfully sort of steward that, and and and what do we do with any proceeds that might come from it? And all those questions are really important, And sometimes that's the pathway. But often there's other pathways that we maybe haven't even thought about that, allow for new regenerative activity, in the congregation.
Ryan Dunn [00:21:32]:
Do you have some recommended listening methods for people to engage with or even some recommendations on how they might begin conversations with civic leaders?
Mark Elsdon [00:21:44]:
Yeah. I mean, again, I think I I often encourage folks to just meet with people and and to let it kind of meet with somebody and then to have a series of questions and to literally listen. So, like, not listen for 5 minutes and then talk for the next rest of the hour. You know?
Ryan Dunn [00:22:03]:
Not to sit down and say, like, oh, I've heard you. Now let me tell you what we were thinking.
Mark Elsdon [00:22:07]:
Oh, let me tell you about our ideas. Yeah. That's not exactly like, that's not the time to do that. We you can tell people about the ideas later, but no. To to really just be like I I often like to I think of a series of questions like, what do you know about our congregation, if anything? What's your impression of it, if anything? Again, what do you feel like are some of the greatest gifts and strengths in our community? And what are some of the greatest needs and opportunities to to do something different in our community? And then I love the question, like, if a church, not even ours necessarily, but a church could do something in this community to transform this neighborhood or the the larger city, what would that be? Tell me, you, the principal, you, the mayor, you, the whatever, what would that be? And the answers people gave are really fascinating sometimes. Right? And just sort of doing that around. And then a final question I would always ask is, who else should we talk to? So we're real. Thank you so much for all of what you shared.
Mark Elsdon [00:23:06]:
Who else would you talk to if you were because then you start leading into pathways of people you don't even know, right? I mean, that's the other issue is we often talk to the people we know first, and that's fine. That's all we know. But ask them who they know, who we don't know, and then have that conversation and do that of 2 or 3 times, and suddenly you're now, you know, kind of networked way further out than previously.
Ryan Dunn [00:23:32]:
Just a little note here in the middle of our episode, this Giving Tuesday, you can double your impact with a gift at umcom.org/givingtuesday to support United Methodist Communications and sharing Christ centered communications around the world. In a time when communication can feel fragmented and divisive, this mission has never been more vital. From resourcing a momentous general conference to launching new training programs in our central conferences that empower leaders to creating resources that inspire congregations to engage with their communities. We've witnessed the transformative power of Christ centered communications in action. However, we can't do this alone. Together, we can foster a new era of communication in the United Methodist Church. One that is deeply rooted in Wesleyan faith and dedicated to spreading the hope of Christ. Give a gift of thanks today at umcom.org/givingtuesday and double your impact.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:35]:
All gifts will be batched dollar for dollar up to $5,000 through December 3rd. Please consider sharing with a friend and encouraging them to give to help us reach our goal of $10,000. Visitumcom.org/givingtuesday to learn more and give today.
Mark Elsdon [00:24:54]:
All
Ryan Dunn [00:24:54]:
right, let's get back to talking church, mission and transition with Mark Elston. There seems to be this undercurrent of disownership. I don't know how else to put it, in terms of the resources of of the church going on. So as we think about, like, a church facility or the land that the church sits on, it doesn't just belong to the congregation. There's kind of that mindset shift happening. And what I appreciate about, the way that rooted good and as you've also written about in while or or edited through and gone for good is that there's this recognition that, the church also exists on a place where, well, there's there's a tradition behind it, and other people have lived on these lands. Can you talk a little bit about, how we might navigate some of the discussions around property transition and how we would do that responsibly or thoughtfully, and what kind of considerations might be important?
Mark Elsdon [00:26:08]:
Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think just to be totally blunt, you know, living in the United States, there's no land that any church is on that wasn't occupied by somebody previously. Yeah. It it, you know, it may not be that our own church took that land from indigenous people, but essentially at some point along the way, that's what happened. Right? Yeah. And so I think anytime we think about the reuse, the monetization for sure, or the repurpose or the sale of church land, we really do need to think a little bit more deeply about what that is. I was having a conversation with, doctor Willie James Jennings, who's a professor at Yale divinity, and he writes some amazing stuff around land and place. And he actually even suggests we need to think not only about the people that lived on the land, but the land itself.
Mark Elsdon [00:27:00]:
Mhmm. I mean, the biblical tradition is infused with this idea that the land is almost an entity, and that God has some that there's something about the land even that is, like, deeply important. Mhmm. And we, I think, in America especially have had this idea that our land and our buildings are ours. And like what you're alluding to, they're ours that we hold on to them and, like, somehow we own them, and that just is not true. It just isn't true, and it certainly isn't true from the Christian worldview or perspective, at least in my view. Like, we are at best stewards of that. We are don't not owners of it.
Mark Elsdon [00:27:40]:
It's like the rich fool, the parable of the rich fool who kind of claimed all of the all of the barn storage that he had as his own, and then god was like, yeah. That's pretty foolish and sorry your life is now over, and now what? You know? It never was his to begin with. The the land produced abundantly, and he was a steward of that land. And as soon as he tried to claim it all as his, that was a mistake. And so all of that's to say, I think I often will ask a congregation simply if they don't know what to do with them, their land, and their building in the future, why not give it back? Have a conversation with indigenous tribes that lived in your area centuries ago and give them it. Give it to them. I mean, if we don't have any better use for it, like, what what are what are we trying to do with it? Right? That's pretty radical idea for some, but it's worth a conversation at least, and some have done it. There is, there are some examples.
Mark Elsdon [00:28:37]:
There's a great church, a great example of a Presbyterian in the northwest, actually, that was a part of our accelerator program, and they ended up giving a a closed church to a coalition of indigenous women, who run an organization that's putting tiny homes on that land for, First Nations women and children that are homeless. And what a cool way of, like, restoring some justice, making use of the land in a new way. And, you know, we don't have to monetize every single thing that we that we've had use of. We just simply don't. I mean, we can be stewards in different ways. And then I guess I would say, you know, really good. We have a tool called how to sell well. It's actually a guide that we help church that helps churches think about if they are gonna sell, how do you do it well? And one of the big questions, of course, would be if you do end up with money from a sale, what are you gonna do with it? And what are we gonna are we gonna just stick it in the bank again like the rich fool? Or are we gonna, like, do something with it that actually contributes to flourishing of neighborhoods and flourishing in our communities? And there's no simple answer to any of these things.
Mark Elsdon [00:29:51]:
I'm not saying that, like, oh, yeah. You just do this and it fixes it. That's not that's not the case. But but it is our responsibility to wrestle with these things and to sort of think about it intentionally.
Ryan Dunn [00:30:04]:
Yeah. Our stereotypical mindset in thinking about church often relates to building and facility. Like we think about church as a place. Have some of the churches who you have worked with, who have decided to sell, does that necessarily mean that they close or are they going on in some new expression of who they are as a church?
Mark Elsdon [00:30:30]:
Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, there's lots of options. So there's a great great example of a of a church in Arlington, Virginia, where they actually did decide to sell. They they went through a massive discernment process. It was quite long. It was 10 years process and fits and starts and struggles and disagreements and all that. And they've in the end felt called to turn their land over to be affordable housing.
Mark Elsdon [00:30:56]:
And so they sold for an affordable housing development. That's 99 units, I think it is, of affordable housing in Arlington, Virginia. But the church did not, close. What they actually did is they took the proceeds of that sale, and then they used that as sort of a core fund for their congregation. And then they rent back the first floor of the building that was built on their on their land. So they don't own it anymore. They rent it back, but they rent it back in, like, a 10 year lease cycle, and, and they they worship there. And so they they are still on their same site.
Mark Elsdon [00:31:34]:
They're just not the owners of it anymore, and they have turned it into something that has a long term, many decade legacy of goodness. But they're still there, and the way they view it is as long as the congregation has some vitality in life, they will continue to rent there, and they'll continue to be there. And they hope that goes on and on and on. If the point comes, though, where the congregation's life is clearly sort of ending, and they do decide to close the congregation, then they've turned that property into something amazing. Mhmm. And they can feel really great about the legacy that they've left there. And they've sort of separated like, you're saying, they've separated congregation from property in a way that then leaves this beautiful legacy on the property and in the neighborhood. And then but then the congregation is no longer in sort of entwined in in this weird way.
Mark Elsdon [00:32:28]:
Right? Like, they're kind of free of it. That's just one example. I mean, there's lots of different ways people are looking at doing this. And, but I do think that question of, like, how do we think about what it means to be the congregation and not just tie that up with our land and our building as the church? And, you know, we've sort of said that for years. Right? The church is the people, not the building. Mhmm. Right.
Ryan Dunn [00:32:54]:
But we're now But we're still the whole
Mark Elsdon [00:32:55]:
thing. Yeah. But we don't do right. We don't do anything about that. Right? We say it, but we don't really like and now we're living in a moment where we have to do something about it. Like, we can't just say that anymore. We actually have to somehow enact that because our buildings are no longer working the way they were. And so, yeah, we gotta do something different.
Ryan Dunn [00:33:16]:
As churches are starting this process, there any, potential landmines that you wanna lay, that you can forecast out for them? Like, okay. Don't ask this question or don't take this step first, as you've learned through experience, because it's something that just works the process at the very beginning.
Mark Elsdon [00:33:42]:
Yeah. I mean, I think the main one is I alluded to earlier. I think it's very, very common for churches to take the first steps into questions of how do we do something and to have some kind of vague idea and then to call up a real estate agent or to call up a developer. And I have yet. I mean, I I say this quite regularly and someday someone will correct me and give me an example, but I have yet to see an example. We're starting there led to a really beautiful outcome in the end. I see people starting there very often and then having to stop and backtrack and restart entirely with the process that I've been describing that really is more about community listening, you know, reflecting on legacy, reflecting on why and what. And if that's not clear, before you get to the sort of technical questions of real estate and blah and money, it doesn't work.
Mark Elsdon [00:34:38]:
It just doesn't ever work. Even in sale, I think some of that conversation needs to be happening. Right? Because otherwise, it becomes just stick a sign in the front and take the highest bidder. And then what? And then what, you know, what have we left there? Nothing, basically. And so so that would be the main thing I see that happens that people and and there's a I understand it. There's this temptation to dive right into, like, let's sort this out through technical solutions, but that that's just not the right starting point. Not if we wanna be concerned about legacy and about impact and about, you know, sort of neighborhood, yeah, neighborhood impact, basically.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:19]:
Do you have some guidelines around how long the discernment process might take? Maybe that'll help set some expectation. Like, this is not a too much process.
Mark Elsdon [00:35:30]:
No. It's not. It's longer than people think or want. I mean, I'm just gonna be totally honest about that. I mean, I we often get calls like, hey. We've got 18 months left. What should we do? And then it's it's tough. Like, 18 months is not long enough.
Mark Elsdon [00:35:47]:
At that point, probably, the options are something like have a discernment over those 18 months about how to sell well. So do that well at least. And then because who are you gonna sell it to, and what are they gonna do with it? And, again, what are you gonna do with the money, and what's the impact gonna be when you sell it when you sell? I I sometimes say, you know, think about coming back 50 years from now to the spot, which is probably after most of us are have passed on and aren't even here anymore. But imagine if we could come back and sort of come and see what's going on in this location that was our church 50 years from now. What's happening in that spot? Because today is the moment we have to make a decision about that legacy. And if we don't, who knows what's gonna be happening there? You know? Is it good? Is it bad? Is it nothing? Anyway so I think the, you know, the other thing that sometimes buys some time is figuring how to rent out a building. Mhmm. That can be viable.
Mark Elsdon [00:36:45]:
We actually do have a resource how to rent well as also, and that can be that can be an option that can buy some time, you know, if you if you're really sort of running out of time. But to do a full sort of reenvisioning of the of the property and the building in a way that the church wants to continue there and continue to that's honestly probably some years, you know, to get to a full it's from beginning to end. The the Good Futures Accelerator course is a 9 month course. It could probably be done in 7 if you were really moving it quickly. 7 to 9 months. And it will get to an idea, like a firm, good idea, and it can get churches to some consensus and clarity about that idea. But you still then have to, like, enact the idea. Right? Bring the partners on.
Mark Elsdon [00:37:33]:
And if you're building something, like developing housing or something, that's a multiyear an absolute minimum of 3 to 5 years, and many of them, it takes 7 or 10 even. So just that's kind of the just to keep in mind, I often say start earlier than you think. And I actually would encourage any church, even churches that are thriving and have no doubts about their budget and really, like, have a great future, still think about how you can use your building more effectively for ministry. Because very likely I mean, almost never have I seen a church that's, like, really fully using all their facilities for maximum community impact. You know, usually, we could use it a lot more than we are. And so that's a resource we could be we could be putting to use for God's word.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:27]:
Well, for folks who wanna learn more or even begin the process, what's the contact info?
Mark Elsdon [00:38:34]:
Yeah. So, rudygood.org is the best place to start for the good futures accelerator course, and it's available to any church anywhere in the country. And, you can actually just purchase it right on the website And, and then we'll ship you materials, physical materials with all the games and all the leader guides and discussion guides and all that stuff. And then there's some video content online that's available via that course as well. So, yeah, so, really good.org for the course and our and our how to guides, how to rent well, how to sell well. It's a guide about taxation. And there's a new guide coming out, how to partner well, that will be out actually in about a month. And then I can be reached my website is melston.com.
Mark Elsdon [00:39:18]:
So Mark Elston, melston.com, where my books and my contact info is.
Ryan Dunn [00:39:23]:
Perfect. Well, Mark, thank you so much.
Mark Elsdon [00:39:26]:
Thank you. It's great to have a conversation.
Ryan Dunn [00:39:29]:
You know, the wonderful thing of podcasting is that I get to initiate conversations that will help me in my own practice of ministry. And this episode certainly fits the bill for that. It is the case. I can't wait to bring some of these ideas back to my own congregation. If you're feeling inspired, check out another my comm episode. I think episode 90 about connecting with the disabled community would be a helpful follow-up to this one. Get us thinking in different ways or in the season that we're in right now, episode 78 about church marketing and your Christmas checklist is gonna be useful too. I'm Ryan Dunn.
Ryan Dunn [00:40:06]:
And I'm looking forward to connecting with you again through episode number 1 102, which is due out in 1 month's time, find more my com in the meantime, through resourceumc.org, which is your spot for fresh ideas and empowerment for church leadership. Talk to you soon. Peace.